Why do scientists disagree about climate change?

By November 4, 2020Climate Change, Politics

I promised a further essay on climate change, and this is it. It focuses on disagreement, the disagreement between scientists on various aspects of the issue. There is a belief, shared by climate activists, that all serious scientists are of one mind: that climate change is real, serious and potentially catastrophic unless we abandon the use of fossil fuels. If that were true, then the game would be over. There would be global agreement by governments, global action to phase out fossil fuels, and we would get used to much higher prices for electricity. What we would do for industries like smelting, for air travel and for back-up for hospitals and other critical users of electricity I don’t know. There is a large too-hard basket in all of this. Perhaps those questions would be put off until 2050, the new ‘time by which’ great decisions must be made.

In fact, it’s not like that at all. The notion that 97 per cent of scientists agree about CAGW is and always has been rubbish, and I’ve written about it trenchantly before. I came across a useful discussion paper in the NIPCC (Non-governmental International Panel on Climate Change) series a while ago, and feel it is time to summarise it for readers here. Let’s start with this statement:

the claim of “scientific consensus” on the causes and consequences of climate change is without merit. There is no survey or study showing “consensus” on any of the most important scientific issues in the climate change debate. On the contrary, there is extensive evidence of scientific disagreement about many of the most important issues that must be resolved before the hypothesis of dangerous man-made global warming can be validated.

At this point some readers will say, ‘Ah that’s the Heartland Institute, funded by coal interests. Why read anything more?’ This is one of the real handicaps in anything to do with a highly contentious issue: the critic shoots the messenger, and does not engage with the message. I try hard not to do this, and in any case much of the document was written by the late Bob Carter, who was a friend from the early 1980s to his death nearly five years ago, a man who knew what he talked about and wrote well into the bargain. In a way, this essay is a kind of tribute to Bob Carter. And the Heartland Institute is not funded from corporate money of any kind. They say so, and I believe them. Those who disagree should provide the contrary evidence.

Why do scientists disagree? My summary goes like this.

First, climate science is a huge field. All those who work in it write from a particular perspective, based on their own disciplinary backgrounds. There is, then, no well-rounded, authoritative climate scientist. Very few scholars have mastery of more than one or two of these disciplines.Practitioners will disagree on a given issue because they rely on their own disciplines and are sceptical of the worth and contribution of others.

Second, There is no survey or study showing “consensus” on the most important scientific issues in the climate change debate…The articles and surveys most commonly cited as showing support for a “scientific consensus” in favor of the catastrophic man-made global warming hypothesis are without exception methodologically flawed and often deliberately misleading.

Third, The hypothesis implicit in all IPCC writings, though rarely explicitly stated, is that dangerous global warming is resulting, or will result, from human-related greenhouse gas emissions… In contradiction of the scientific method, IPCC assumes its implicit hypothesis is correct and that its only duty is to collect evidence and make plausible arguments in the hypothesis’s favour.

Fourth, IPCC and virtually all the governments of the world depend on global climate models (GCMs) to forecast the effects of human-related greenhouse gas emissions on the climate…  GCMs systematically over-estimate the sensitivity of climate to carbon dioxide (CO2), many known forcings and feedbacks are poorly modelled, and modelers exclude forcings and feedbacks that run counter to their mission to find a human influence on climate.

Fifth, Neither the rate nor the magnitude of the reported late twentieth century surface warming (1979–2000) lay outside normal natural variability. The late twentieth century warm peak was of no greater magnitude than previous peaks caused entirely by natural forcings and feedbacks.

Sixth, Melting of Arctic sea ice and polar icecaps is not occurring at “unnatural” rates and does not constitute evidence of a human impact on the climate. No convincing relationship has been established between warming over the past 100 years and increases in extreme weather events.

Seventh, Rather than rely exclusively on IPCC for scientific advice, policymakers should seek out advice from independent, nongovernment organizations and scientists who are free of financial and political conflicts of interest… Individual nations should take charge of setting their own climate policies based upon the hazards that apply to their particular geography, geology, weather, and culture.

There is a lot more in this paper, and others might have picked on other aspects. But these will do for me. Each of them is supported carefully with references. I agree with nearly all of what I have set out above. The point is that no one is arguing across the table. Take Arctic freezing/melting. While that is a matter where we need to look at the data we have precious little that is of much consequence. Much attention is paid by the warmists to the satellite period (1979 to the present), whereas the sceptics point to a hard-to-deny warm period in the 1920s based on reports from governments and newspapers, not on satellite data — how could there be any from that time? We have little data that are comparable, let alone global, for more than fifty years relating to temperature or precipitation. What do the data tell us? I shrug my shoulders. The last fifty years? What about the last five hundred? The last ten thousand?

So much of the warmist argument depends on models, and GCMs have not been shown to be accurate. Since forecasts began to be made thirty or so years ago, it is not hard to track the forecast against what actually happened. The NIPCC objections to the use of models seems to me to be sound, and they have led to many attempts by warmists to show that if you look hard enough, the forecasts have been accurate. I shake my head. I don’t think so. Again, that is one of those things where a serious debate, using the arguments and data from both sides, is essential. It hasn’t happened.

As I argued in my last essay, it hasn’t happened because the warmists have won the political argument. They have convinced governments and the media that they’re right. That began to happen a long time ago, and we are trapped in the outcome. In areas such as energy we are doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons. True, governments are talking about what has to be done by 2050, not by 2020, and what will happen by 2050 will be determined much more by energy prices and blackouts than by plans set out now.

But how I wish for a leader prepared to say that we need a fresh look at some of these issues. The NIPCC papers — there are a number of them, all worth your attention — suggest the basis for a serious discussion. And my thanks to and admiration for the late Emeritus Professor Bob Carter, who directed me to the IPCC third assessment report as the first thing to read if I were to come to terms with the issue of climate change. That was nearly twenty years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Join the discussion 554 Comments

  • Mike Dinn says:

    My problems start with how to define the temperature of the planet. I can’t see any credible or meaningful way to do this. Certainly not in terms of degrees, let alone tenths of degrees.
    But if a definition could be agreed, how can actual, meaningful measurements be made, and melded in some sensible manner? How could you even measure the temperature of Canberra? Using the max or min or simple (meaningless) average? Ground level or some other height? Over grass, concrete? Near buildings?
    So for me, any other assertions re global warming are meaningless, especially when extrapolation for 80 years or more are made

    • spangled drongo says:

      Very true, Mike.

      However there are some great measurements that are telling us that nothing is happening, such as Mean Sea Levels for the Pacific Ocean which are today over 6 inches LOWER that their first recorded level taken over a century ago:

      http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLD.shtml

      Yet this very definite and applicable evidence is conveniently ignored by so-called climate scientists.

    • Boambee John says:

      Mike

      The concept of a “global climate” is an artificial construct upon which the whole edifice of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change has been built. A more likely reality is that there are innumerable regional climates, however, building a computer model to simulate them would be so openly ludicrous that even the climate “scientists” might balk at it.

      What is needed are regional solutions to regional problems, not the farce of a team of “experts” controlling “global” solutions by dialling down CO2 levels in a few selected regions.

  • Bryan Roberts says:

    Don, the ‘we’re all gonna die’ syndrome appears to be ineradicable, and essential to the proper functioning of society. What will we do without our Eurydice?

  • spangled drongo says:

    Thanks Don, for your concise summary.

    Yes, it is all political but today the social justice warriors seem to have so much control of the minds of the young that the future looks frightening.

    Back in the days of our youth, “the times they were a changing” then, too but up and coming youth had to make their point along with everyone else and the media was pretty balanced in its outlook.

    Today, the media is owned by the descendants of people who made their money on the free market and left it to their luxury-embalmed, guilt-ridden children who nowadays heavily finance the SJW philosophy.

    Not to mention govt media which is also very heavily SJW biased.

    They all lie like pigs-in-mud when it comes to fake climate stories:

    https://climaterealism.com/2020/11/new-york-times-overstates-importance-of-climate-change-to-voters/

    https://climaterealism.com/2020/10/sorry-guardian-climate-change-isnt-causing-a-jamaican-beach-decline/

    This all adds to and reinforces the scientific fakery at the bakery!

  • Neville says:

    Here’s the most accurate way to test their so called climate crisis, using real data from the real world.
    Earth day scientists in 1970 told us that the world was on the path to famine and crisis and this would be both poor countries and eventually wealthy countries would also succumb by 2000.
    But today 4.1 bn MORE people are alive and are more prosperous and live longer and overall standard of living is much higher in every way.
    And today Africa has increased their population by 977 million people since 1970 and they have higher living standards and much higher life expectancy of 64 compared to 47 just 50 years ago.
    Of course China has broken all the historic rules by becoming a world superpower in the last 40 years and obviously individuals enjoy a much higher standard of living and life expectancy of 76 etc.
    The extremists couldn’t have been more wrong in their forecasts and we can definitely state today ( using REAL WORLD DATA/ EVIDENCE) that there is ZERO sign of a climate crisis, except from their silly fantasies that seem to emerge from their feverish imaginations.

  • Stu says:

    “ And the Heartland Institute is not funded from corporate money of any kind. They say so, and I believe them. Those who disagree should provide the contrary evidence.”

    You could start with this site. https://climateinvestigations.org/who-is-paying-for-heartland-institute-climate-denial-palooza

    “Heartland Institute and friends are heavy recipients of Koch foundation funding and Donors Trust ‘dark money’ funding, but an important new donor has emerged in the past decade…

    In recent months, the Mercers have been revealed as among the biggest backers of Trump’s campaign and machine. Rebekah Mercer is now a Trump Whitehouse advisor according to news accounts.

    The NewYorker’s Jane Mayer published a new piece last week, The Reclusive Hedge Fund Tycoon Behind the Trump Presidency, on the Mercers and their influence over the current state of affairs

    And the Washington Post’s Matea Gold threw down a big piece on the Mercers and Steve Bannon in last Sunday’s paper.

    Over the past decade the Mercer Family Foundation has funded Heartland Institute and have become one of their biggest donors (e.g. Heartland 2014 total revenue = $6.9M Mercer foundation donation $885,000). The Mercers made their money from hedge fund investing and initially supported Koch Foundation (coal money) before becoming dissatisfied and creating their own dark money outfit. And they are only one source”

    It is a feature of practically all climate denial groups to be supported by a dark money web.

    Further:

    “ In June, 2017, The Heartland Institute announced Kansas Rep. Tim Huelskamp would be replacing Joe Bast as president, to begin working starting July, 2017. Bast said he would remain with Heartland as CEO until some time in 2018. Less than two years after starting the role, Huelskamp reportedly resigned from his position in June 2019 with Jim Lakely filing in as interim president. Heartland did not comment on why Huelskamp left the position. [182], [246]

    Huelskamp is former chairman of the Tea Party Caucus and a member of the far-right House Freedom Caucus. Huelskamp maintains a lifetime score of 5% with the League of Conservation Voters, with a score of 0% in 2016. A full list of legislation sponsored or cosponsored by Huelskamp is available at Congress.gov. According to his voting record tracked at OnTheIssues, Huelskamp has consistently voted against any legislation that would combat fossil fuel emissions or climate change. [183], [184], [185], [186]

    According to data from OpenSecrets, Huelskamp’s top donor is Koch Industries and he has received the highest lifetime campaign contributions from the Oil and Gas industry, totally over one-quarter of a million dollars.

    Tim Huelskamp also a signatory to Americans for Prosperity’s “No Climate Tax” pledge. The pledge reads as follows:[189]

    “I, ________________, pledge to the American people that I will oppose any legislation relating to climate change that includes a net increase in government revenue”

    He also told HuffPost that he didn’t believe that climate change was “settled “science.” [190]

    “I don’t think there’s a scientific consensus on that,” Huelskamp said. “If you want to print that life begins at conception, that’s settled science.”

    The source for that is here https://www.desmogblog.com/heartland-institute

    In summary they can claim no corporate money because they hide the actual sources through front groups, but it is still corporate and representing fossil fuel industry positions.

    Of Bob Carter it has been written:
    “ In response to claims made by Bob Carter that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had not uncovered evidence that global warming was caused by human activity, a former CSIRO climate scientist stated that Bob Carter was not a credible source on climate change and that “if he [Carter] has any evidence that [global warming over the past 100 years] is a natural variability he should publish through the peer review process.” (He never did)

    Carter wrote numerous newspaper articles primarily for UK and Australian newspapers that attempt to disprove global warming. He also wrote two books.

    In reference to his involvement with the Institute for Public Affairs (IPA), Carter stated in a March 15, 2007 Sydney Morning Herald article: “I don’t think it is the point whether you are paid by the coal or petroleum industry.”

    According to leaked documents Carter received $1,667 a month from the Heartland Institute, an organization with an intense focus on climate change skepticism. Carter was to be paid for his work as a co-author and editor on Heartland’s Non Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (NIPCC) reports. “

    • spangled drongo says:

      Poor silly stu believes that ANY funding claimed to be paid to sceptics is evil.

      But the factual trillions that are actually going to alarmists from taxpayers who reject the fake science because it is based on absolutely NO EVIDENCE, is essential.

      And that is apart from:

      “Thousands of scientists have been funded to find a connection between human carbon emissions and the climate. Hardly any have been funded to find the opposite. Throw 30 billion dollars at one question and how could bright, dedicated people not find 800 pages worth of connections, links, predictions, projections and scenarios? (What’s amazing is what they haven’t found: empirical evidence.)”

      When are you going to wake up, stu?

      • Stu says:

        “ stu believes that ANY funding claimed to be paid to sceptics is evil.”

        No, but as the saying goes, follow the money.

        “ Thousands of scientists have been funded to find a connection between human carbon emissions and the climate. Hardly any have been funded to find the opposite”. Are you really sure about that. Most of the research money is simply studying one or more of the many indicators of health of the environment. Not that many are actually researching the carbon link, but simply add weight to the effects of that link.

        Have you forgotten, science is science. They are open to changing the hypothesis if it is proved wrong. It is not simply a tilted field as you suggest. Real scientists are better than that.

        • spangled drongo says:

          “No, but as the saying goes, follow the money.”

          You mean you don’t know which side all the money is going to?

          Who’s getting rich on the fakery?

          https://www.heritage.org/environment/commentary/follow-the-climate-change-money

          “Have you forgotten, science is science. They are open to changing the hypothesis if it is proved wrong.”

          When they haven’t come up with anything better than GIGO climate models in 40 years why do you think they refuse to change the hypothesis?

          According to the principles of science they should have changed it when they couldn’t find evidence.

          Instead of manufacturing evidence by assumption. And adjustment. And homogenisation.

          • Stu says:

            “ Who’s getting rich on the fakery?”

            Simple, every day of delay in winding down use of carbon based fuels is billions of dollars of profit for said companies. QED. How come you don’t see that? The mighty dollar rules. As they say “follow the money”.

          • spangled drongo says:

            How come you can’t see that fossil fuels are not fakery?

            Even though you can never find any evidence to support your religious belief?

            Is that the definition of a recently-well-washed brain or what?

            Fossil fuels are what mankind has used for ever.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          “Have you forgotten, science is science. They are open to changing the hypothesis if it is proved wrong. It is not simply a tilted field as you suggest. Real scientists are better than that.”

          I have a bridge to sell you.

    • Aynsley Kellow says:

      Stu,
      You do not establish your claim and, as is usual with warmists, you just ignore the fact that the big money is on the opposite side of the issue. Have a look at the activity of people like Tom Steyer and Michael Bloomberg – or Chesapeake Energy, which gave $25m to the Sierra Club’s ‘Beyond Coal’ campaign. Bloomberg is heavily invested in gas also and has donated to Sierra. Steyer and Bloomberg were also responsible for the corruption that led to the scandal of RCP8.5 being adopted by the IPCC as ‘business as usual’.

      Steyer, who made his money in coal, personally committed $100m for the 2014 mid-term US elections to fund candidates committed to climate change action and met with Obama’s Counsellor John Podesta in February 2014, together with hedge fund operator George Soros. Steyer spent slightly less than $100m. Having established NextGen Climate in 2013, he sought to defeat candidates that did not agree with his views on climate change, with $74m mostly channelled through the super Political Action Committee, the NextGen Climate Action Committee. He also personally donated $7m to the Democratic Party, the largest individual donation to either party in the 2014 election. Most resources went to attack Republican candidates who did not support Steyer’s climate change agenda. For the 2016 elections, he planned to spend $50m, with a $25m contribution to the Democrats making him (again) the largest political donor in the US, he now funded those who met his criteria for supporting ‘non-carbon’ electricity.

    • John Stankevicius says:

      Stu, you have lost the argument trying to belt the opposition player from behind while he is going for the ball.
      You attack people who have a different view from you – by calling them Nazi – immature at best , idiotic really.
      The backers of the international labour paojrties are worsen- the idiot hollywood film industry, the sex obsessed programmers in San Fran M( this is a surprise as the programmers I know have their feet firmly on the ground).
      And what of the backers of man made climate Change – are they not sick looney lefties.
      Are they not the same that flock to the sugar movie and attack every major indusTry, in Oz the banks, miners and now. Retailers. Smelters next and manufacturers already gone.
      I can go on but I will leave it there – by the way male mental health is a load of shite.

  • spangled drongo says:

    More evidence here of how alarmists are loose with the truth, awa evidence-free, when it comes to climate facts:

    https://climaterealism.com/2020/10/daily-kos-defends-big-tech-is-confused-about-crop-yields-vs-crop-production/

  • Peter E says:

    Thanks. A very useful summary.

  • Geoff says:

    Thanks for this outline of issues. As one who knows little more than the outlines of the substantive climate/policy debate, I’m struck by the line “no-one is arguing across the table”.

    In my own recent work on debate quality, I’ve mapped a list of argument tactics that fall short of substantive counter-argument and refutation. On this and other contentious topics, it’s hard to “disagree well”.

    https://geoffsharrockinmelbourne.net/2020/10/23/debate-quality-in-the-university-how-bad-can-it-be/

    In forums such as The Conversation, I note that many exchanges on climate amount to little more than a duel of misreadings of the other’s apparent position.

  • spangled drongo says:

    How the world has changed:

    “To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes, the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.”

    Thomas
    Jefferson

  • Ben says:

    For me, it comes down to a couple of things…

    Temperature – Mike is correct that the concept of an ‘average global temperature’ is fundamentally flawed. Oceans, ice caps, deserts, rainforests, cities… mental. Even worse when you investigate how the global temp is assembled – (max + min)/2, plus homogenisation where outlier temps are adjusted. So the min can affect the temp as much or more than the max. However I do accept that a warming trend could be possible since it would be weirder for temperatures to always be the same.

    Greenhouse effect – I accept some greenhouse effect is real, but I am skeptical of its impact on temperatures. Saturation, spectrum etc – and the historical fact that temperature and CO2 have changed independently in the past.
    I’m skeptical that humans are responsible for all the extra CO2 in the atmosphere – NASA’s OCO satellite recorded three rainforests emitting an EXTRA 5x Australia’s total annual emissions in one year. Also the 20yr warming hiatus and the 1970s cooling.

    Catastrophe – it’s just not that bad. A bit of beneficial warming is far better than cooling. The alarmism and anti-social ranting of alarmists also doesn’t gel. It’s way off kilter. The climate-gate emails and the peer review failure (as described by the editor of Lancet and our own Chief Scientist) are proof that skepticism should be employed. That the RE lobby is all aboard with climate alarmism but decries nuclear power is telling, as is the socialist dictates of the UN.

    What I see is a hierarchy of controlling interests driving the climate change alarmist engine, followed by tiers of vested interests and useful idiots, including media, academia, politicians, bureaucracy.

    The public will slowly wake up.

  • Bryan Roberts says:

    The public has already woken up. Unfortunately, the media has not.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s a reasonably up to date article with graphs from Lomborg and AGAIN proves that S&W are a DILUTE, unreliable, super expensive disaster. Plus the clean up of this toxic mess every 20 years, means that this is the dirtiest energy and totally destroys the environment + exploited sites.
    Today S&W supply less than 1% of TOTAL energy and if all countries live up to the Paris agreement that will still be less than 4% of TOTAL energy by 2040.
    The chances of countries fulfilling that is ridiculous, because the cost is horrendous and the return on the investment is ZIP.
    He uses the EU’s IEA data and the cost to achieve even 4% would be in trillions of $ as shown by the NZ govt calculations I’ve linked to before.
    And of course no measurable change for the climate or temp or co2 levels by 2100 and beyond. IOW this is a total fraud and con trick.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/solar-wind-taking-over-world-bjorn-lomborg-1/?trackingId=skVvXRNqx7nE8Rcs3Ix82w%3D%3D

  • Neville says:

    Here AGAIN is Dr John Christy’s talk at the GWPF in London last year. He covers so much of the science in regard to climate and the list is comprehensive. This is how he finishes his talk.

    https://www.thegwpf.com/putting-climate-change-claims-to-the-test/

    “I have three conclusions for my talk”:

    “Theoretical climate modelling is deficient for describing past variations. Climate models fail for past variations, where we already know the answer. They’ve failed hypothesis tests and that means they’re highly questionable for giving us accurate information about how the relatively tiny forcing, and that’s that little guy right there, will affect the climate of the future.

    The weather we really care about isn’t changing, and Mother Nature has many ways on her own to cause her climate to experience considerable variations in cycles. If you think about how many degrees of freedom are in the climate system, what a chaotic nonlinear, dynamical system can do with all those degrees of freedom, you will always have record highs, record lows, tremendous storms and so on. That’s the way that system is.

    And lastly, carbon is the world’s dominant source of energy today, because it is affordable and directly leads to poverty eradication as well as the lengthening and quality enhancement of human life. Because of these massive benefits, usage is rising around the world, despite calls for its limitation”.

    “And with that I thank you very much for having me”.

  • spangled drongo says:

    When this is the best “solution” to a non-problem it is good to see people like Don trying to bring our stupidity to the attention of a deluded world.

    Here is another huge “renewable” installation that is probably near 200% inefficient.

    Not to mention the environmental destruction it causes.

    IT’S billed as one of Australia’s biggest renewable projects, but the South Burnett Times can reveal just six months since the installation of the final turbine, operators are already working to replace critical components in nearly half of the major windfarm’s generators:

    https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/major-failures-half-of-coopers-gap-windfarm-to-be-repaired/news-story/5f107f9fa59360a8e895eca235decd8e

  • Neville says:

    How can this Bandt idiot remain in our parliament when he urges other countries to ban imports of our Aussie coal? If this isn’t treason or treachery then what is it? I think this treasonous scumbag should be thrown out on his ear, ASAP. Here’s a part of deputy PM McCormack’s speech in parliament.

    https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/mining/deputy-pm-michael-mccormack-slams-adam-bandts-comments-to-south-korea-as-treacherous/news-story/42ca81bb9f979b960f170aef9928690d

    “The Nationals have called on Greens Leader Adam Bandt to retract his comments urging South Korea to stop buying Australian coal, or resign.

    During an address to South Korean MPs on Tuesday, Mr Bandt encouraged them to stop buying Australian coal and renegotiate trade agreements to include carbon tariffs.

    Nationals Leader and Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack said reports that Mr Bandt was urging a foreign government to act to the detriment of Australia’s national interest were “deeply concerning.

    “By urging a foreign government to agitate for a change to Australia’s domestic policies through a free-trade agreement, the Greens have attempted to undermine our democracy,” Mr McCormack said on Wednesday.

    “In telling a foreign government to stop buying Australian coal, Adam Bandt is telling tens of thousands of workers in our resources industry that their jobs don’t matter.

    “He is telling tens of thousands of families that they shouldn’t be able to put food on the table. He is telling small and medium-sized businesses that they should just shut up shop.

    Mr McCormack said the comments were an attack on Australian jobs and the national interest.

    “Adam Bandt is Australia’s modern-day Benedict Arnold. This is treacherous behaviour,” he said.

    “The Nationals urge Mr Bandt to immediately withdraw his comments and apologise to the thousands of workers who rely on Australia’s resource industry for their livelihood. If Mr Bandt does not withdraw these comments, he should resign from parliament today.”

  • Boambee John says:

    As a general comment on the title of this article, if the scientific method is to have value, there should, indeed must, be disagreement.

    But why do climate “scientists” reject open debate, abd the scientific method?

    • Neville says:

      Yes BJ and of course there is no climate crisis. Just look at……
      The world is greening.

      The 7.8 bn people today are wealthier and healthier than at any time in history, with a life exp of 73. Even our poorest continent (Africa or 53 countries) have a much higher population and increasing life exp of 64 and higher standard of living, than 30 years ago or 50 years ago.
      China has become a super power in under 40 years and their life exp is now 76 + much wealthier etc.

      Deaths from extreme weather events have dropped by 90+% since 1920 when world pop was just 1.8 bn and today 7.8 bn.

      Antarctic peninsula has been cooling since 1998, see Turner BAS study . And no warming in Antarctica since 1978 according to the SAT UAH V 6 study.
      Also lowest temp ever recorded in Antarctica just 3 years ago.
      The Arctic could become cooler soon when the warm phase of the AMO changes to cool.

      But Dr Christy’s talk at the GWPF covers much more to support my claims above.

      But the clincher is that we can’t change temp or climate or co2 levels for thousands of years.
      See Zickfeld + RS &NAS + The Conversation article. I’ve linked to all these and the first two many times.
      Therefore their so called mitigation is just the greatest fraud and con trick in history.
      We should cancel the unreliable, dirty S&W idiocy and build only reliable base-load power stns for our future needs.

      • Stu says:

        Neville, there is no need to pick off all your points, to just nullify one sets the example for the rest of the, trying to be kind, exaggerations.
        You wrote “ we can’t change temp or climate or co2 levels for thousands of years.”. Even the worst of your denialist friends accept that the uptick in atmospheric CO2 can be traced to the advent of mass burning of fossil fuels. The latter are basically long stored solar energy, accumulated over hundreds of millenia, burned in a short time. As you like to say QED. But I am confident you will find some simplistic, even juvenile, objection to the argument. Remember in formulating your response that humans have put back into the air in 100 years what it took the earth 100 million years to sequester, or do you have some smart aleck denial of that fact.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Stu sez; ” Even the worst of your denialist friends accept that the uptick in atmospheric CO2 can be traced to the advent of mass burning of fossil fuels.”

    More assumption from the ever-evidence-free assumption specialist.

    Try dealing with known scientific facts and give the assumptions a rest.

    In the meantime read this and calm down:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/11/05/global-cooling-will-kill-us-all/

  • Neville says:

    Stu I can’t dumb it down any further for you. I’ve linked to the NOAA co2 data trends since 1960 and the Wiki per country trends to prove my point.
    I’ve linked to RS and NAS + Zickfeld study and I can link to Petit study for Vostok site that shows temp moving down for 6,000 to 8,000 years before co2 started to follow at the end of the previous Eemian interglacial.
    These very long lag times for co2 in those ice-core studies is your big problem and even the left wing Conversation article agreed with the above science.
    But then we have Shellenberger and Lomborg agreeing that there is “Apocalypse Never” and a “False Alarm” to their silly nonsense. And Shellenberger even apologised for his previous misrepresentation of the science.
    Shellenberger is at present an IPCC reviewer and Lomborg leads a team of about 24 scientists and economists and at least 3 are Nobel Laureates.
    And your choice of dirty S&W can’t make a difference for thousands of years and will definitely destroy the environment forever and this toxic mess has to be bulldozed and dumped and then replaced AGAIN every 20 years.
    But toxic S&W are unreliable and will lead to blackouts during unfavourable weather events and the poor and elderly will suffer if these toxic expensive disasters are not stopped ASAP.
    We need reliable, safe base-load power to run a modern country , not toxic,unreliable and dirty S&W.

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu

    You never responded to my comment on the other climate thread about Elon Musk.

    What say you?

  • Stu says:

    Classic case of missing the point. Nev etc immediately drop into the CO2/temperature link, whereas I was responding to the claim that humans have no effect on CO2 levels. Go back and check. Remember “…we can’t change temp or climate or co2 levels for thousands of years.” In fact Nev your “ I’ve linked to the NOAA co2 data trends since 1960 and the Wiki per country trends to prove my point.” proves my point and destroys yours. Try again and stick to the subject.

    • Neville says:

      Geeezzzz stu I’ve never said that humans have had no impact on co2 emissions or levels.
      In fact I’ve repeatedly referenced China, India and developing countries emissions over and over.
      And I know that co2 levels have increased since the start of the Ind Rev and I’ve shown that on so many occasions.
      But I don’t accept that we can fix or mitigate their so called climate crisis BS and only a fool would think so.
      Please wake up.

      • Stu says:

        Geeezzzz Nev, so now you are in denial of your own post. Here it is again “ But the clincher is that we can’t change temp or climate or co2 levels for thousands of years.” Not having a cognitive short term memory problem are you? Stick with your knitting.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          “can’t change temp or climate or co2 levels for thousands of years.”

          I recall a report, perhaps by the Chief Scientist, claiming that even if all emissions ceased today, current atmospheric levels will not reduce for a very long time.

          He might have qualified it by adding a link to temperature, which could change the quantity absorbed by the oceans. If he didn’t, he should have, but who am I to challenge the Chief Scientist?

        • Neville says:

          Gosh stu you really are stu-pid or are you just trying to be funny?

    • spangled drongo says:

      Those human CO2 levels are almost certainly a bonus, stu. If you observed what is happening as a result of it you could not help but be impressed. However the lack of compatibility between year-to-year human emissions rate changes and year-to-year atmospheric CO2 ppm changes has existed for quite some time so just where it really comes from is uncertain.

      The only thing science is sure of WRT warming and CO2 is that warming produces more CO2.

      It is not known if more CO2 produces more warming. If it did to any extent we would have a runaway effect which we certainly have not got and which has never occurred in the history of the earth.

      So it obviously does not happen except to possibly a very small degree.

      As in indistinguishable from natural climate variability as we are getting currently.

      But one thing CO2 seems to produce in certain people is chilling which produces extreme enuresis.

      • Stu says:

        “ However the lack of compatibility between year-to-year human emissions rate changes and year-to-year atmospheric CO2 ppm changes has existed for quite some time so just where it really comes from is uncertain.”

        Oh come on now, even most of the shady sources you use concede there is a strong link. And of course the science covers it too.

        “To identify the cause of global warming, scientists study the carbon in our atmosphere.

        Powell: “Carbon has three varieties: three different isotopes, all with the same number of protons, but three different numbers of neutrons.”

        James Powell of the National Physical Sciences Consortium says these isotopes are found in different proportions in different substances. For example, the carbon found in plants has a distinct ratio of the isotopes carbon-12 and carbon-13.

        There’s also a difference between the carbon isotopes in living plants and those in fossil fuels, which are made from plants that died millions of years ago.

        That’s because plants contain the radioactive isotope carbon-14, which decays over time.

        Powell: “Geological materials like coal, oil, and natural gas are so old that they no longer have any carbon-14.”

        Scientists can measure exactly how much of the carbon in the atmosphere today came from fossil fuels. CLICK TO TWEET
        So by studying isotopes, scientists can measure exactly how much of the carbon in the atmosphere today came from fossil fuels.

        Powell: “We can’t get away with saying that humans are not responsible for the carbon that’s been added to the atmosphere. The isotopes don’t lie and they show it.”

        Reporting credit: Sarah Kennedy/ChavoBart Digital Media.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          “To identify the cause of global warming, scientists study the carbon in our atmosphere.”

          This looks like a classic case of assuming the answer before studying the problem. Is this the key assumption behind the models?

          • spangled drongo says:

            The fact that humans only emit ~ half of the CO2 that appears in the atmosphere is a side issue.

            But be thankful that it is happening and solving future problems for us.

            The main problem with you and all the other bed-wetters is your stu-pid endeavours to destroy our good fortune.

            If you had the brains and the honesty to acknowledge our historical [and future] glacial problems instead of trying to make political mileage out of something you are ignorant about, you might just realise which side your bread is buttered on.

            But I suppose if your motive for all this is the reduction and destruction of humankind you may not be quite as obtuse and dishonest as you currently appear to be.

            Why don’t you come clean, stueyluv?

          • spangled drongo says:

            BJ,

            Sorry, that was in reply to stu.

          • Boambee John says:

            SD

            No problems, easy to work out!

  • spangled drongo says:

    Green “Climate” Finance is now upon us.

    For insight into the lunacy of green finance take a look at Elon Musk’s electric-car venture, Tesla. In just the first nine months of 2020, it received a whopping $1.2 billion in regulatory credits – from California and other states in America, from the US federal government and even from the European Union.

    That’s $1.2 billion without making a single extra car – just for making cars that aren’t based on fossil fuels. Mr Musk sells his credits to Honda, General Motors and Fiat Chrysler (FCA) – car giants that haven’t got out of gasoline and into electric fast enough, as far as the US authorities are concerned.

    No wonder he is doing OK.

    But at everyone else’s expense.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/11/02/why-the-next-financial-crisis-could-be-green/

    • Boambee John says:

      SD

      I suspect that a fair bit of SpaceX, particularly the early development was financed by these subsidies. At least he did something productive with them.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Sorry, Google and World Bank, but Middle Eastern Crops Keep Thriving:

    “Google News today is promoting articles (see the Google-promoted PhysOrg article here, for example) about a speculative World Bank “study” claiming climate change is threatening crop production in the Middle East. The World Bank study is full of speculation but short on facts. Real-world data show crop yields per acre and total crop production are consistently and dramatically rising in each of the Middle East countries examined by the World Bank study.”

    Cereal crop production in Iraq increased 91 percent, even as the acreage being harvested fell 5 percent.
    Cereal crop production in Iran increased 187 percent, while the acreage harvested increased by just 2.6 percent.
    Cereal Crop production in Jordan increased 15 percent, even as the acreage harvested declined 30 percent.
    Cereal Crop production in Lebanon increased 115 percent, while acreage harvested increased 30 percent.
    Cereal Crop production in Syria increased 22 percent, even as acreage harvested declined 66 percent.
    Cereal Crop production in Turkey increased 46 percent, even though acreage harvested declined 19 percent.

    https://climaterealism.com/2020/11/sorry-google-and-world-bank-but-middle-eastern-crops-keep-thriving/

    • Neville says:

      Yes SD and that’s why I keep harping on about the REAL world and not our stu-pid Donkey’s fantasy world.
      Since 1970 our poorest continent has somehow found the means to feed,clothe, house, educate etc an incredible 977 million more people. OH and the 1340 ( total today in Africa) million people are now much better off than they were in 1970.
      But our ignorant donkeys yap on about their so called climate crisis with hands over their ears and eyes shut tight.

      • spangled drongo says:

        Absolutely, Neville.

        But in spite of the real world giving us the facts and no empirical evidence to the contrary, the stu-pids are in the ascendant and they have the establishment running scared:

        “Australian superannuation fund commits to net-zero emission investments after Brisbane man sues

        “A 25-year-old man from Brisbane has successfully sued one of Australia’s biggest super funds over its handling of climate change, forcing it to commit to net-zero emissions for its investments by 2050.

        “It’s the first time a superannuation fund has been sued for failing to consider climate change”:

        https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-02/rest-super-commits-to-net-zero-emmissions/12840204

    • Stu says:

      Bloody amazing figures. Such increases in productivity just through more carbon in the air I hear you say. Get real. Go and research the change in crop yields everywhere through improved varieties and GM and of course massive change in technology, particularly in the middle east, mechanisation over that 30 year period. Once again you confuse correlation with causation. But that is ok, we are used to it. Agribusiness is the key, both here and there with individual farm acreage increasing markedly, matched with ever bigger equipment. And that may continue, but climate effects are another factor altogether.

      Slightly shifting topic, you complain climate scientists are chasing the dollar and are biased. Once again science is science. But on your side you quote flaky reports from organisations like Heartland, which actually show a 100% commitment to the line they push. You never see a contradictory piece or even vague question from any of those outfits. Like you they are totally committed to their cause and blinkered to any alternative view. Which is why they are largely ignored and reputable scientists don’t even comment on their crap, unless they (very rarely) dare to publish peer reviewed papers.

      • spangled drongo says:

        “Go and research the change in crop yields everywhere through improved varieties and GM and of course massive change in technology,”

        You’re in absolute ignorant denial, as usual, stueyluv.

        If you chose to put your head outside and checked your own backyard you would see that scrub, undergrowth, grasslands, woody weeds and all things wilderness that don’t get any tech assistance are growing twice as fast and twice as high in less time.

        Even in drought.

        That aerial fertiliser is amazing stuff.

        But do you ever go outside and look?

        And you then have the hide to compare a sceptical scientific group [unfavourably, surprise?] with your consensual climate catastrophists.

        And claim they have a “100% commitment to the line they push”

        What a breathtaking hypocrite you are, stu.

      • spangled drongo says:

        Stu sez; “Once again you confuse correlation with causation. But that is ok, we are used to it.”

        You are used to it all right!

        You consensuals never stop claiming it!

      • Boambee John says:

        “You never see a contradictory piece or even vague question from any of those outfits”

        But enough about the alarmists.

        • Stu says:

          SD says “ If you chose to put your head outside and checked your own backyard you would see that scrub, undergrowth, grasslands, woody weeds and all things wilderness that don’t get any tech assistance are growing twice as fast and twice as high in less time.
          Even in drought.
          That aerial fertiliser is amazing stuff.”

          Twice as fast, twice as high, pull the other one, his old memory is playing tricks on him.

          Think about it, if all the scrub, undergrowth, woody weeds etc grow so well, “even in drought”, how come the graziers and grain growers did it so tough during the drought.

          Next he will be telling us to watch out for the Triffids or doing a back flip to claim he was being sarcastic. Tactical withdrawal or something.

          • spangled drongo says:

            The things you don’t know or observe would fill an encyclopaedia, stueyluv.

            Graziers and grain-growers, btw, don’t allow scrub, undergrowth, woody weeds etc but they are still doing OK in spite of the drought.

            Mostly due to that aerial fertiliser.

            But my fruit orchard, which I abandoned to the scrub when I retired, not only is overwhelmed by scrub but the fruit trees still produce great crops, while never being irrigated anymore, but they are way too high for the most extended picking poles to reach.

            And all the local national parks and wild bushlands are an impenetrable entanglement in recent years when traditionally in my daily wildlife data logging [which I still do] I could pretty-much wander where I pleased. The undergrowth and woody weeds have gone from knee high to more than head high.

            You are welcome to come and see for yourself.

            Even a non-observer like you couldn’t miss it.

            Now, do you have any evidence to support your argument that no extra growth is occurring?

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Your usual babble about “historically rapid change in climate”, but no actual data. How about you exhume the good old hockey stick.

            Or perhaps you could try some original thought?

        • Stu says:

          Is that the best you do BJ? You are slipping.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            It is the best I could bother doing with you, there is no point in wasting time on a closed mind.

          • Stu says:

            Charming, I am sure. But you have it wrong. It is denialists with the closed minds. Think about sticking with the status quo which basically sums up the denialist position, ie same old, same old, demonstrates a lack of ability to see alternative positions. Contrast that with the scientific position of looking at ongoing changes in earth systems and considering causes and effects with an open mind. So far the mountain of evidence weighs heavily on the side of historically rapid change in climate being linked to results of human industrial activity. Many fields of study are ongoing, most being very narrow and hardly claiming a “total” position on the question of human caused climate change. But the totality of all those lines of study points in one direction. On the other side (your side) a smaller (much) set of studies postulates a different cause/effect scenario, followed by broad conclusions about the global significance of such narrow evidence. This position garners a great deal less support in scientific fora. And this denialist side of the fence usually demonstrates a rigid adherence to that narrowly held view in the face of (denial of) all the alternative evidence.

            But there you go. I don’t expect you to reply seeing as you think “ It is the best I could bother doing with you, there is no point in wasting time ”. So therefore you stick with your view and we can chat again in five to ten years. Bye now.

          • spangled drongo says:

            In other words what you are saying, stueyluv, is that alarmist cli-sci promoters and green socialists can endlessly explore climate boundaries and come up with all sorts of catastrophic reasons to rob us blind and expand their influence, whereas rational sceptics admit that when our climate is well within those same bounds of natural variability, it is wise to remain sceptical.

            Yes, I fully agree. It’s just a shame that you are so influenced by the former and are never going to wake up until it is too late.

            As you disappear into the distance, vigorously handwaving in your recognisably evidence-free manner, we can only advise that you open your mind somewhat and pay more attention to the obvious.

            You will find that it is really a much broader philosophy than your tunnel vision is currently aware of.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Perhaps you could give us some specific examples of “historically rapid change in climate”?

            Don’t forget that reliable records go back only a short time in geological terms. The rest is proxy reconstructions, which might “hide the decline” using deceptive splicing.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            No specific examples yet? Surely all the material collected by the IPCC, the world’s scientific societies, the CSIRO, the BoM must include some juicy morsels?

  • Neville says:

    Boris Johnson is a complete fool when he yaps about his so called climate crisis and he doesn’t even bother to understand the latest data and evidence.
    And the idea that Biden would also understand is really stretching our imagination. This is like the blind leading the blind and trillions more $ to be wasted on dirty, unreliable S&W disasters.
    Plus a complete bulldozing of their toxic mess every 20 years and starting all over again. And ZERO change to climate, co2 levels, temp etc by 2100 and for thousands of years. Look up the data Boris.
    And the CSIRO tells us that the entire SH is a NET ZERO sink anyway, so Morrison should tell Boris and Joe to go jump when they demand the we stuff up our economy and environment just to satisfy their ignorant POV.

    https://www.euronews.com/2020/11/08/uk-pm-johnson-says-biden-win-means-america-can-lead-on-climate

  • Neville says:

    Just for our delusional donkeys AGAIN who persist in ignoring the data/evidence. Here’s the CSIRO quote and link telling us that the SH is the NET SINK and the NH is the NET SOURCE for co2.

    Note also that in this time of lock-down the SEPT 2020 co2 level is 2.5 ppm HIGHER than SEPT 2019. And the Mauna Loa difference for the same period is about 2.75 ppm.

    BTW the average yearly increase in co2 levels since 1988 ( then 350ppm) is about 2 ppm and for last year is about 2.6 ppm from combined average ( SH + NH) so far from above. This could change slightly by end of DEC 2020. Here’s the CSIRO quote AGAIN……

    “Seasonal variation”

    “Carbon dioxide concentrations show seasonal variations (annual cycles) that vary according to global location and altitude. Several processes contribute to carbon dioxide annual cycles: for example, uptake and release of carbon dioxide by terrestrial plants and the oceans, and the transport of carbon dioxide around the globe from source regions (the Northern Hemisphere is a net source of carbon dioxide, the Southern Hemisphere a net sink)”.

    https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/Latest-greenhouse-gas-data

  • spangled drongo says:

    Our resident alarmists would be relieved to learn that a new study discredits human attribution in global warming:

    • 93% of the changes to the Earth’s energy budget, manifested as warming of the Earth system, are expressed in the global ocean. Just 1% of global warming is atmospheric.

    • Even with the advent of “quasi-global” temperature sampling of the ocean since 2005 (ARGO), these floats (pictured) “do not measure below 2,000-m depth.” This means that temperature changes in “approximately half the ocean’s volume” are still not being measured today.

    • To detect the effects of anthropogenic forcing, it would require energy budget imbalance measurement precision of 0.1 W/m² at the top of the atmosphere (TOA). Uncertainty in the forcing changes affecting climate is ±4 W/m², meaning that uncertainty is about 80 times greater than an anthropogenic signal detection.

    • Past changes in global ocean heat content, such as the last deglaciation, have been 20 times larger than modern changes.

    • Ocean heat storage during the Medieval Warm Period (Medieval Climate Anomaly, or MCA) was much greater than modern. Modern global ocean heat uptake is “just one-third” of what is required to reach the levels attained during Medieval times.

    https://principia-scientific.com/new-study-discredits-human-attribution-in-global-warming/

    • Neville says:

      Good find SD and the earlier Holocene optimum warming was much warmer than our present era and SLs were much higher as well. In fact at least 1.5 metres higher about 4,000 years ago on our east coast after the end of the Hol optimum. See ABC Catalyst.
      BTW Willis Eschenbach has an interesting post about el nino, la nina as a giant heat pump that is able to move heat to the poles and from there to space. Who knows?

      https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/11/08/boy-child-girl-child/

      • spangled drongo says:

        Yes Neville, good post as usual from Willis. I did like the last comment:

        Michael Hammer November 8, 2020 at 9:26 pm

        Complexity often depends on how one chooses to view a problem. In the case of CAGW the theory explicitly states rising CO2 warms the planet by reducing Earth’s energy loss to space. NASA has measured Earth’s energy loss to space since 1985 (outgoing longwave radiation or OLR for short) and it has been steadily rising not falling. If the predictions of a theory conflict with measured reality the theory is wrong. To me, it really is that simple!

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu

    I see that the mad Cannon-Brookes plan to lay an undersea power cable thousands of kilometres to Singapore across a tectonically active seabed, for electricity export, l has been abandoned.

    Now the intermittent output of his solar farm is to be sent to Darwin to produce ammonia for export, purportedly to be used to generate hydrogen for fuel. I wonder what subsidies he will seek to make this attempt at perpetual motion profitable.

    He might do better using it to produce ammonium nitrate for domestic use, but would miss out on the opportunity to send a “clean power” virtue signal.

    Weren’t you loudly proclaiming his genius a few threads back? Exporting clean energy, saving Gaia? Any re-think in prospect?

    • Neville says:

      BJ here’s a supposedly radical question for Singapore to consider.
      Why not just build the latest GEN 4 Nuclear plant and have ZERO emissions, always reliable and will last until 2070 at least and then will require minor checks and updates until 2100?
      This underwater delivery just blows out the dilute nature of this solar idiocy to many more thousands of sq klms and the cleanup of this dirty, unreliable mess would cost 100s millions of $ every 20 years until 2100.
      Don’t forget this is 4 times that this would have to replaced by 2100. So who would pay for this clean up and replacement over the next 80 years?
      And of course no change to temp or climate or co2 levels for thousands of years. See the Conversation, RS & NAS + Zickfeld study etc.

  • Boambee John says:

    A few reasons to question climate scientists.

    “The data doesn’t matter. We’re not basing our recommendations on the data. We’re basing them on the climate models.”
    Prof. Chris Folland, Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research

    “We’ve got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy.“
    Timothy Wirth, President of the UN Foundation.

    “Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”
    Maurice Strong, Founder of the UN Environment Programme (UNEP)

    “Yeah, complete revolution was on the table for this country and I think this green revolution has to pursue those same steps in stages.
    Van Jones

    “”To capture the public imagination, we have to offer up some scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements and little mention of any doubts one might have. Each of us has to decide the right balance between being effective, and being honest.”
    Dr. Stephen Schneider, Greenhouse Superstar / Leading greenhouse advocate, in an interview for “Discover” magazine, Oct 1989

  • Boambee John says:

    And some more

    No matter if the science of global warming is all phony… climate change provides the greatest opportunity to bring about justice and equality in the world.”
    Christine Stewart, former Canadian Minister of the Environment

    “It doesn’t matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true.”
    Paul Watson, co-founder of Greenpeace.

    “I believe it is appropriate to have an ‘over-representation’ of the facts on how dangerous it is, as a predicate for opening up the audience.”
    Al Gore, “Climate Change” hysteric and multi-millionaire

  • Boambee John says:

    And the most important. Imagine being governed by the self selected “experts” of climate science!

    Government in the future will be based upon . . . a supreme office of the biosphere. The office will comprise specially trained philosopher/ecologists. These guardians will either rule themselves or advise an authoritarian government of policies based on their ecological training and philosophical sensitivities. These guardians will be specially trained for the task.

    David Shearman & Joseph Wayne Smith, The Climate Change Challenge and the Failure of Democracy, p134, Praeger, Westport, Connecticut, USA, 2007. David Shearman was an IPCC Assessor for the third and fourth climate change reports.

  • Neville says:

    BJ thanks for those quotes from the liars and extremists over the last few decades.
    I can recall most of them but some are new to me and of course are just more delusional nonsense.
    I see their ABC are madly promoting the latest climate report from CSIRO and BOM and once again we’re rushing headlong into the apocalypse according to these con merchants.
    Dr Finkel has stepped down and a new woman has taken over as our chief Scientist and I hope a senator soon asks her the same question that was asked of Dr Finkel UNDER OATH.
    BTW here’s another interesting stat comparing our poorest continent ( Africa, about 53 countries) and the SH.
    Since humans have become fully evolved over the last 200,000 years the population of the SH ( now 0.8 bn) hasn’t topped one billion people, but Africa’s population has increased by 0.977 bn in the last 50 years.
    While I’m not promoting this as a good thing it still proves conclusively that we’re NOT facing a climate crisis. In fact the reverse is true and the data and evidence proves the case.
    Of course with better education, plus better health care etc this rate of increase will drop as Dr Rosling , the UN etc forecast recently. Africa also has a very young population, so this future reduction in birth rate will take some time.

    Here’s an interesting exchange about evidence between Sen Malcolm Roberts and Dr Finkel in 2016. In the end Dr Finkel agrees it is modeling not empirical evidence that convinces him of their so called CAGW.

    • Boambee John says:

      Nevile

      I suppose that Stu is too busy watching the US election to defend the alarmists or respond to the Cannon-Brookes backdown, but I am a bit surprised not to have him regurgitating the usual talking points.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s the evidence from Dr Finkel that Australia’s total reduction of co2 emissions would have no impact on global temps.
    And the CSIRO also tells us that the entire SH is a NET ZERO co2 sink and the NH is the NET co2 source.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s the latest delusional nonsense from the Guardian about what they claim to be a “climate crisis”.
    “As the climate crisis escalates “…

    ” the Guardian will not stay quiet. Millions are flocking to the Guardian every day, and thousands read our environmental reporting every week. Readers in 180 countries now support us financially.

    Amid the various crises of 2020, we continue to recognise the climate emergency as the defining issue of our lifetimes. We’re determined to uphold our reputation for producing powerful, high-impact environmental journalism that reflects the urgency of the situation and is always grounded in science and truth.

    Last year we published a climate pledge, outlining the steps we promised to take in service of the planet. And we’ve made good institutional progress since: we no longer accept advertising from fossil fuel companies and we’re on course to achieve net zero emissions by 2030.

    We believe everyone deserves access to quality, trustworthy news and analysis, so we choose to keep our journalism open for all readers, regardless of where they live or what they can afford to pay.

    When it’s never been more pertinent, the Guardian’s independence means we can scrutinise, challenge and expose those in power on their climate policies and decisions. We have no shareholders or billionaire owner, meaning all of our journalism is free from commercial and political influence – this makes us different. We can investigate and report without fear or favour.

    If there were ever a time to join us, it is now. You have the power to support us through these volatile economic times and enable our journalism to reach more people, in all countries.”

  • spangled drongo says:

    Thanks BJ and Neville for exposing this thriving fakery.

    Don appropriately asks; Why do scientists disagree about CC?

    It doesn’t seem to have much to do with science.

    Here’s even more of the daily “fake climate change”. They are trying to brainwash the world.

    What religion would you call it:

    https://climaterealism.com/2020/11/sorry-google-people-flocking-to-florida-debunks-florida-climate-emergency/

  • Neville says:

    SD I think I would call it the religion for idiots. BTW I think your QLD senator Malcolm Roberts did a good job in the 2016 Senate questioning of Dr Finkel and I must check to see whether he received the written answer promised by Dr Finkel.

  • Stu says:

    I see nothing much has changed here, certainly nothing worthy of commenting on. And it is interesting to note that no one has commented on the latest “state of the climate” report by BoM and CSIRO. But I am confident all the usual players here will claim to be far more knowledgable than the multiple authors of the report and the research and observations on which it is based. Go to it chaps. And while you are at it throw in a response to the pending shift in attitude to the climate question flowing from the change in administration in the US. Where does it leave your foundering cause?

    • spangled drongo says:

      When this is the best that your top grade cli-sci can offer these days, stueyluv, I can understand your frustration with your new religion:

      http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2020/11/12/the-sound-of-settled-science-92/

      • Stu says:

        Still ducking the question, “where to now?”, as your ranks become even thinner. Even the US Federal Reserve, a not insignificant body in world finance, is now onboard with working to fix the problem. Read this and take your head out of the sand. Even our PM is starting to reposition, slightly.

        “ Fed Chair Jerome Powell on Thursday said the U.S. central bank had been working with the Network of Central Banks and Supervisors for Greening the Financial System (NGFS), and had been attending meetings. “I think we are in the process of applying for membership there now,” he said.

        Fed Governor Randal Quarles told lawmakers in testimony on Tuesday, “We have requested membership,” adding, “I expect that it will be granted.”

        The NGFS has not yet received an official letter of application laying out the Fed’s motivation for joining and its areas of interest, as required by the organization’s charter, NGFS Secretariat head Morgan Despres told Reuters on Friday. But the U.S. central bank has been in talks for months with the group about what it needs to do to join and the workload being a member would entail, he said.

        Fed staff have also been invited to take part in a couple of workstreams, including one on sizing up the impact of climate change on the economy and financial stability, and another on bridging data gaps, Despres said.”. – Reuters.

        • spangled drongo says:

          “Still ducking the question, “where to now?”’

          You should be asking Dr Finkel that one, stu.

          His lack of evidence [other than GIGO GCMs] is just so indicative of all you alarmists.

          Thinking we should commit hundreds of trillions and send the west into poverty without making a scrap of difference to global temperatures would have to be the best recipe for disaster the Green Marxists could ever dream up.

          Those videos of Neville’s, above, prove in no uncertain manner just how weak the science for CAGW really is.

      • Neville says:

        Thanks for that link SD, all good accurate data from Dr Pielke and Dr Maue as we’ve come to expect from them.
        BTW in comments at that link there are claims that the Biden loony has appointed McIntyre’s “upside down Mann” as his Scientific advisor.
        Fair dinkum these left wing donkeys will be working overtime to wreck the US economy ASAP and wasting trillions of $ until they accomplish their rotten agenda.
        Meanwhile the Chinese CP must be pinching themselves, unable to believe their luck. And with their superior coal powered economy they’ll pull ahead of the clueless western countries and further their ongoing adventures in the China sea, Taiwan, Japan etc.

    • Boambee John says:

      Looks as if Stu has exhausted whatever little of substance he had to contribute to the discussion!

      • spangled drongo says:

        Yes BJ, when all the alarmists are flocking to the warm areas and the richest of them are buying sea frontages, you would think even someone lacking in imagination like our stu would wake up to the fact that this ponzi scheme has nothing to do with CAGW and/or the “science” thereof.

  • Neville says:

    SD and BJ I’m convinced our left wing donkeys are in love with both the LW politics and their delusional fantasies about their unreliables etc.
    We’ve provided conclusive proof that there’s no climate crisis, but evidently they can’t add up simple sums or simple data that anyone should be able to understand, and they retreat forever to their fantasy planet. Here’s Matt Ridley’s talk to the GWPF where he covers the science/ data and draws the very obvious conclusions.

    This is the best video to understand the science/data and takes about 40 mins. I would loved to have seen the Q&A afterwards and I’m sure a number of RS members were present, to try and test Matt on any disagreements.

  • Stu says:

    As I said you continue to write off the pronouncements of respected peak bodies, in this case BoM and CSIRO, who align with global science. You are as pitiful as the anti-vaxxers, maybe even as evil. By the way BJ and company, are you anti-vaxxers? I would not be surprised as it requires a similar approach to respected science.

    It is noted that you never respond to any point, only deflect, which is standard denialist practise. Copy cats!

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      Pronouncements need empirical evidence for support, not just GIGO models.

      See one of the quotes I posted above, on this very subject.

      PS, you still have not responded to my request above that you post examples of “historically rapid change in climate”.

      PPS, nothing either on the somewhat drastic changes in Cannon-Brookes’ grand scheme?

      Sad, low energy (or perhaps lack of knowledge).

    • Boambee John says:

      PPPS Stu

      “By the way BJ and company, are you anti-vaxxers?”

      I suppose beingvaccused if being an anti-vaxxer is better than your usual evidence free slanders about not caring for my grandchildren, or the even sleazier “racist”, which you also use, again with no evidence.

    • spangled drongo says:

      Pay attention stu, and watch those videos. They supply very rational answers to your claims of “pronouncements of respected peak bodies”.

      And calling sceptics “anti-vaxxers” is so typical of your evidence-free claim of CAGW.

      You alarmists are the super deniers of reality.

      And if you are so convinced about the integrity of the BoM, did you ever think to ask them why, as even their own site is showing sea levels over the biggest piece of ocean in the world to be going nowhere for the total duration of their record, their claims of unprecedented AGW can be believed?

      http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLD.shtml

      Science is all about rational scepticism, stueyluv, not evidence-free belief.

      So when you can never supply that evidence it’s time for you to come out of your kiddy-class fixation.

      • Boambee John says:

        SD

        “And calling sceptics “anti-vaxxers” is so typical of your evidence-free claim of CAGW.”

        Stu earlier referred to deflection as a “denialist ” (sic) tactic, while he indulged in a bit of deflection himself. If you want to know what alarmists are up to, look at what they accuse you of doing.

  • Alessandro says:

    In 1841 Charles Mackay wrote the book Extraordinary Popular Delusions, the Madness of Crowds which provides copious amounts of evidence of how man (sorry ladies) goes mad in crowds and slowly recover their senses one by one. In my view both CV19 and AGW fall within popular delusions however much of the argument herein is on the alleged science and not on the politics which is in essence the problem area. I have physically lived in Canberra, Sydney and now Northern Queensland. I have moved from being politically left (Canberra), to centrist then to the right (Sydney) and back to centrist (NQ). People in my coal mining electorate ran NIMBY Bob Brown out of here when he visited during the last federal election. Life is funnier than fiction. The locals often ask really basic yet profound questions that should be asked by my previous latte sipping Inner West Sydney neighbours.

    One such example is why do our governments both state and federal support the reduction of coal usage here but accept the economic benefit of exporting coal to China, India and other developing nations and don’t give me the BS about China has promised to reduce the use of coal after 2030? If you believe that then I have a bridge ……….

    One could say that eradication of coal use is a racist policy because it will disadvantage poorer nations in Asia and Africa. Why should they not have the benefit of cheap, reliable and sustainable energy as have our nations since the industrial revolution? And please don’t give me the argument that RE is cheaper than coal. If it was then why are our prices now so high and why do RE purveyors need such excessive subsidisation?

    Hopefully by 2041, someone will update Mackay’s book and include the great delusions of the 20th and 21st centuries, namely AGW and CV19, reflecting how mankind eventually recovered their senses one by one and got back to living life with the benefits of HELE coal generation. I won’t be around but maybe someone could let me know via an appropriate seance held in here in NQ while the rest of the planet is undergoing the global cooling as predicted by the so called climate scientists in the 1970’s. Another popular delusion.

    Politics 101: Talk with your children and teach them critical thinking. If you don’t know how then learn, then teach. Teach them to keep asking WHY for even the most basic of subjects/issues/policies/etc, as often it is the most basic of questions that reveal the truth.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Stu’s “respected peak bodies, in this case BoM and CSIRO, who align with global science”, all conveniently use assumption-based GCMs to do their aligning:

    “Our science clearly shows that, due to increasing greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide, in the atmosphere, Australia’s climate is continuing to warm,” said Jaci Brown, the CSIRO’s director of climate science. “The frequency of extreme events, such as bushfires, droughts and marine heatwaves is growing.”

    But to help their fakery along they decided to delete all measured data before 1910.

    They didn’t want any of those old, inconvenient facts getting in the way of the new religion.

    Good thing that Mean Sea Level measurement didn’t start till 1914.

    Inconvenient. But good.

    • Boambee John says:

      SD

      “But to help their fakery along they decided to delete all measured data before 1910.”

      Can’t have reality impacting on the proxy “reconstructions”, can we? But some modern (adjusted and homogenised) data are need to “hide the decline”.

      I wonder if Stu can ever come up with an example of “historically rapid change in climate” without resorting to proxies or models?

  • Neville says:

    The increasing rapid urbanisation of the world is another one of my arguments why we can claim using actual data/evidence that there is definitely no climate crisis.
    And of course the more urbanised a country is the wealthier and healthier are the citizens.
    In the early 2000s the entire world passed 50% urbanized living and most wealthy OECD countries have urban populations over 80%.
    NZ, Australia, USA, Canada, UK, Japan, Germany, France etc are highly urbanised today and only a small percentage of the remainder are required to grow food and fibre etc for the majority and they sell to export markets as well.
    And Worldometers data tells us that by 2050 this level will be much higher than today and even the poorest countries will be moving higher up the wealth and health ladder as their standard of living improves.
    On the world map at the link you can move the mouse over a country to see the % of Urban living. Aussies about 84% and NZ 86% and USA about 82%.

    https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/

    • Boambee John says:

      Neville

      “And of course the more urbanised a country is the wealthier and healthier are the citizens.”

      And a more urbanised country uses energy in more concentrated areas, thus has more sources of the Urban Heat Island effect. Guess where many weather stations are? At airports (themselves sources of heat via large areas of pavement and passing blasts of hot exhaust), adjacent to urban areas, exacerbating the UHI effect.

  • Neville says:

    Sorry here is the link for urban living, see countries map down page.

    https://ourworldindata.org/urbanization

  • Neville says:

    Here’s another reason I know there’s no climate crisis. Read it and THINK ABOUT IT.

    “In 1900, just under 40 percent of the total US population lived on farms, and 60 percent lived in rural areas. Today, the respective figures are only about 1 percent and 20 percent.

    “The United States had between six and seven million farms from 1910 to 1940 (figure 1). A sharp decline in the number of farms occurred from the 1940s to the 1980s. At the same time, the average farm size more than doubled, from about 150 acres to around 450 acres”.

    http://jaysonlusk.com/blog/2016/6/26/the-evolution-of-american-agriculture

    • spangled drongo says:

      Yes, it certainly bears thinking about, Neville.

      Being a farm worker since 1946 I know where this is coming from.

      And you have to laugh at Labor with their similar ignorance as they continue to shoot themselves in the foot:

      https://www.smh.com.au/national/power-plays-at-work-as-labor-split-over-climate-action-20201113-p56egf.html

      • Neville says:

        SD thanks for that SMH article link and part of what they write is debatable, but then again so much is total nonsense.
        But in reference to my link to part of the US shift from farms to city jobs since 1900. In 1900 a huge workforce was employed on the land and it has been falling ever since.
        A tiny number of farmers now grow much more than earlier times because they use modern machinery, better inputs, more and efficient irrigation systems, better varieties etc.
        This would’ve been impossible even 30 years ago and ditto today IF THE CLIMATE WAS IN CRISIS. Just more proof that there so called CAGW is garbage and anyone who really believes this nonsense should wake up to themselves and stop pretending.
        And those US numbers above would be the same in all wealthy OECD countries and yet the shift to urban living has now started in Africa as well. Pop today of 1340 mil.
        And again this wouldn’t be possible if the climate was deteriorating in Africa and of course they now have to feed another 977 mil more people in just the last 50 years.

  • Neville says:

    Even the French govt are starting to wake up to these solar pigs and parasites and now plan to cut back on these so called energy investments. Good for them and let’s hope it hurts them , because they’ve been in the taxpayer trough long enough. See link below.
    “Green lobby up in arms as France plans to tear up solar subsidy contracts”

    Date: 13/11/20

    “As the perverse opulence of multi-billion renewable energy subsidies become ever more costly, the French government has decided to stop the rot.

    “The French government plans retroactive cuts to generous solar subsidies it granted between 2006 and 2010. The green energy industry should expect more retroactive subsidy cuts in coming years. This is the price the green lobby is paying for claiming that renewable energy is now dirt cheap”.

    https://www.thegwpf.com/green-lobby-up-in-arms-as-france-tears-up-solar-subsidy-contracts/?utm_source=CCNet+Newsletter&utm_campaign=cb23a30ba4-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_11_13_02_28_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fe4b2f45ef-cb23a30ba4-36463321&mc_cid=cb23a30ba4&mc_eid=dcbe0ef09b

  • Neville says:

    Here’s some more accurate data from Lomborg to counter the con merchants from the MSM, Labor and the Greens etc. Please understand their fra-dulent con tricks before we waste more trillions $ on these dirty energy sources.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/03/30/bjorn-lomborg-no-renewables-are-not-taking-over-the-world/

    Bjørn Lomborg writes on his Facebook page:

    “We’re constantly being told how renewables are close to taking over the world.

    We’re told they are so cheap they’ll undercut fossil fuels and reign supreme pretty soon.

    That would be nice. If they were cheaper, they could cut our soaring electricity bills. With cheap and abundant power, they would push development for the world’s poorest. And it would, of course, fix climate change.

    Unfortunately, it is also mostly an illusion. This short video shows you why renewables are not likely to take over the world anytime soon.

    It is also crucial for us to know. The misapprehension that renewables are just about to take over makes many believe that we have all the technologies needed to go to zero CO?. That we just need more political will. Yet, nothing could be further from the truth.

    Jim Hansen, Al Gore’s climate advisor and the scientist who literally started the global warming worry in 1988 puts it clearly: “Suggesting that renewables will let us phase rapidly off fossil fuels in the United States, China, India, or the world as a whole is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy.”

    To fix climate change, we need to stop believing in the Easter Bunny and start realizing that without much better, cheaper, green technology, we won’t transition away from fossil fuels. That’s why we need to invest a lot more into green energy R&D. If we can help innovate green energy to become cheaper and better than fossil fuels, *everyone* will switch. Not just rich, well-meaning first-worlders, but also China, India and Africa.

    The video shows how we’ve spent the last two centuries getting *off* renewable energy. In 1800, most energy came from our own back-breaking work, along with wood (for fire) and draught animals. Wind and water contributed in most places a tiny fraction. The 6% fossil fuel was almost entirely England starting up the industrial revolution with coal.

    What made us rich over the next two centuries, was cheap and plentiful energy, almost exclusively from fossil fuels. It made it possible for us to have machines do much more of the hard work. By the end of the nineteenth century human labor made up 94 percent of all industrial work in the US. Today, it constitutes just 8 percent.

    For the past half century, renewable energy has hovered around 13-14%, most of it wood burning in the world’s poorest regions (leading to the world’s leading environmental killer, indoor air pollution)”.

  • Neville says:

    Here Lomborg looks at the Biden plan to mitigate their so called climate crisis. Here’s the most important quote from his article in the NZ Herald and that first paragraph should give every thinking adult a wake up call.

    So why would any thinking adult be concerned about a 0.2 to 2% reduction in incomes by 2070 when the average person then will be 3.6 times richer than we are today? And this forecast is from the UN data.

    “Biden, like many politicians across the rich world, frequently claims that climate change is an “existential threat” to human existence. However, this is contrary to the central findings of the UN Climate Panel. It estimates that by the 2070s, global warming will overall have a negative impact equivalent to a reduction in incomes of between 0.2 and 2 per cent. By then, the UN expects the average person will be 363 per cent as rich as today. The negative impact from climate change means we will instead be 356 per cent as rich as today. That is a problem, but not the end of the world.

    While well-intentioned, Biden’s sprawling plan has few concrete cost points and contains many ideas of varying quality. He proposes to retrofit millions of homes for hundreds of billions of dollars, although the largest US study of 40,000 retrofitted homes shows that costs are twice as high as benefits.

    Biden also wants to restore the full electric vehicle tax credit, although spending US$7500 for each electric car is one of the costliest ways to cut emissions. The International Energy Agency finds an electric car over its lifetime only emits about 10 tons less CO2 than a similar gasoline car. On the original US carbon market, the so-called RGGI, this reduction could be achieved for just US$60″.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/bjorn-lomborg-joe-bidens-us2-trillion-climate-plan-could-fix-it/KSJ5P3LEHLJQ6EOT7S256SZPGM/

  • Neville says:

    Here AGAIN is Lomborg’s NY Post article where he calculates the cost of net zero emissions by NZ. But as I stated the net zero calculation cost is also agreed by the NZ govt’s calculation as well. Here’s the relevant quote and article link and don’t forget they will have no measurable impact on temp at all. Yet they intend to flush 5 trillion $ down the drain for a ZERO return.

    https://nypost.com/2019/12/08/reality-check-drive-for-rapid-net-zero-emissions-a-guaranteed-loser/

    “Across the century, the cost for the small island nation of 5 million souls would add up to at least $5 trillion. And this assumes New Zealand implements climate policies efficiently, with a single carbon tax across all sectors of the economy over 80 years.

    No economy has ever introduced climate policies that effectively, because politicians love to pick winners, promote ineffective solutions like electric cars and lavish subsidies on poorly performing technologies.

    What will this achieve? Let’s ­assume that in every one of New Zealand’s elections between now and 2100, governments are chosen that continue to fulfill the promise of going to zero by 2050 and staying there. Imagine, too, that New Zealanders don’t rebel against the inevitably large tax hikes on energy — no “yellow-vest” protests.

    In these artificial conditions, if New Zealand meets its promise of zero emissions in 2050 and stays at zero for five decades, then the greenhouse-gas reduction, according to the standard estimate from the United Nations’ climate panel, will deliver a temperature cut by 2100 of 0.004 degrees.”
    BTW we know our blog donkeys are clueless about any of this, but the data and evidence couldn’t be easier to understand and yet they prefer to be ignorant and play the fool.

  • Neville says:

    Quick calculations show us that their so called NET ZERO mitigation would cost the entire world about 5K trillion $. Yes that’s right about 5000 Tr $ to try and follow the NZ govt’s extremist nonsense.
    The Chinese govt would have to find about 1450 tr $, the USA about 700 tr $, Aussies about 55 tr $ and every other country according to their percentage of co2 emissions. Anyone starting to see a problem?
    OH and the size of the world economy in 2019 was about 133 trillion $ according to the World bank.

  • Neville says:

    That size of the World economy is disputed by these data from Wiki’s list of 3 different sources, like World bank, IMF and the UN. And the calc is using GDP for every country. Roughly about 83 to 88 trillion $ and lower than the 133 trillion I quoted above.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

  • spangled drongo says:

    Why many scientists disagree with other scientists:

    “Federal money allows unelected and protected civil service bureaucrats to control scientific research. They dictate the projects, and often outcomes. They use selective leaks to the press to embarrass any elected politicians who try to interfere with their control over research. The bureaucrats trade in fear and relish it. Politicians who disagree with them are suppressing or ignoring “science.” To them science is not a search for the truth, it is a dogma that must be believed. Worse, they believe a consensus of experts is scientific fact.”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/11/15/the-government-corruption-of-science/

    • Boambee John says:

      SD

      Ike’s warning about the military industrial complex is well known. His equally prescient warning about government funded science is not, but deserves to be.

    • Stu says:

      I imagine Don might have strong views on this quote from the Drongo, as he was once prominent (pre-eminent even) in a role doing just that kind of decision making.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        Public servants are required to implement government policies that are not illegal. Many do that every day. You are trying to build a mountain out of a molehill.

        There are questions above for you to address, do that instead of trying to distract from the issue at hand.

        • Stu says:

          This is a classic case of you guys running of screaming “the sky is falling”. FFS, all I wrote was Don might have an opinion on the comment SD quoted which was “ Federal money allows unelected and protected civil service bureaucrats to control scientific research”. No other comment or value statement either way on my part. You two are pathetic, admit for once you completely misread the situation.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            I see that your reading comprehension has not improved.

          • spangled drongo says:

            Yes BJ,

            Stuey sez; “I imagine Don might have strong views on this quote from the Drongo”

            He was agreeing with me and I couldn’t see it.

          • Stu says:

            Like I said, you guys are unbelievable. I should add obtuse. And you see any statement from your perceived opposition as an argument to be attacked no matter what the statement. You must live in a very small world, I truly feel pity for you and understand your predicament, poor souls.

          • spangled drongo says:

            BJ,

            And then he reckons we are deniers. LOL.

      • spangled drongo says:

        And it wouldn’t take too much imagination to guess which way Don’s views would point, stueyluv.

        You wouldn’t understand, I know, but genuine scientists are always rational and sceptical:

        https://principia-scientific.com/scientists-discover-coral-reefs-recovered-quickly-after-bleaching/

  • Stu says:

    What were you twerps saying about Tesla? Here is a report from Reuters. “ S&P Dow Jones Indices announced that the company would join the S&P 500 index prior to the opening of trading on Dec. 21, potentially in two tranches making it easier for investment funds to digest.

    “(Tesla) will be one of the largest weight additions to the S&P 500 in the last decade, and consequently will generate one of the largest funding trades in S&P 500 history,” S&P Dow Jones Indices said.

    With a stock market value over $400 billion, Tesla will be among the most valuable companies ever added to the widely followed stock market index, larger than 95% of the S&P 500’s existing components.”

    Funny that. Maybe, just maybe you are completely wrong, but that would be amazing since you have such a grasp of reality, do you not? Yeah, right! Don’t come back saying the market gets it wrong, that would be a total contradiction of your grand stance.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      Take away the “carbon” (sic) subsidies that he receives, then talk to us about the market.

      • Stu says:

        Mate, “the market” no matter the props, the market includes all that, get over it, loser.

        • spangled drongo says:

          ‘“the market” no matter the props, the market includes all that”

          Your preferred “market” might, stueyluv, but the real world does not favour people who bludge on the public purse.

          When you always prefer to go where the govt provides free money and you don’t provide any benefit for it, the real market eventually catches up.

          But then, maybe you know all that because you love to operate the same way as Elon.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          Your definition of “market” has more to do with crony capitalism than an actual market.

          Still, since you support subsidies as part of the market, I propose a subsidy to companies that provide reliable continuous power. Call it a reliability subsidy, charged against ruinable companies every time they are unable to deliver at least 70% of nameplate capacity.

  • Neville says:

    We’ve long understood that our blog donkeys are clueless and continue to ignore proper data and evidence.
    Here’s Shellenberger’s latest short video on the S&W disasters and anyone who doesn’t understand ALL the POINTS he makes is ignorant or stupid or just doesn’t care about the environment.
    And all this in about 5 minutes and yet the ignorant donkeys close their eyes and cover their ears because they just don’t care.

  • Neville says:

    You have to ask why Obama , the World bank and IMF etc were so severe towards African countries who now have to suffer the worst indoor pollution in the world? Who wants to inhale dirty dung and wood fires in our 21st century world.
    If they were able to use USA super critical scrubbing technology they could save many lives today and ongoing sickness and millions of future lives.
    These new plants should be built ASAP in Africa and around the world and Aussies should be upgrading our grid as well.
    All lives matter both in Africa and all around the world. Let’s ditch the dirty,unreliable S&W disasters and change to better base-load power for a healthier/,wealthier ,brighter future.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/11/17/co2-coalition-clean-coal-technology-can-fight-energy-poverty-in-africa/

  • Neville says:

    Here Shellenberger tells us why reliable Nuclear power is the safest energy source today.
    Since the industry started there have been few deaths from nuclear plants and the data + evidence are mind boggling over a very long period of time.
    And with new GEN 4 plants the safety features are even more impressive and yet the left wing extremists prefer to wreck the environment and kill wildlife with dirty, unreliable S&W. Then every 20 years you have to clean up that toxic mess and start all over again.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5OJRxZoMI8

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu

    You still haven’t commented on the radical changes to the Cannon-Brookes “let’s export renewable electricity to Singapore using a high voltage underwater cable across a tectonically active seabed” plan.

    Do you think it was changed because someone convinced him it was stu-pid, or because the subsidy on offer didn’t offer enough to cover the costs and still let him pocket lotsa moolah?

    • Boambee John says:

      It seems that Stu has been embarrassed by his support for a scheme which could only ever be an engineering challenge and has now been modified almost beyond recognition. Only the subsidy harvesting remains.

      Stu: if you couldn’t see the engineering issues with that scheme, no wonder you can’t see them with solar, wind and batteries.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Lefty Cli-Sci even disagrees with itself about climate change.

    “A new report issued by the United Nations World Meteorological Agency (WMA), “titled The Human Cost of Disasters,” says climate change is causing more frequent and severe weather disasters each year. PBS and other mainstream media outlets uncritically reported on the WMA report. The U.N.’s own data, however, show the claims in the report are false”:

    https://climaterealism.com/2020/10/un-contradicts-its-own-data-to-promote-weather-disaster-alarm/

  • spangled drongo says:

    Can you believe this drivel from Deloitte?

    “Just when you thought you’d had enough scary and ridiculous predictions for one year, along comes Deloitte Access Economics with claims Australia will lose $3.4 trillion in income and 880,000 jobs by 2070 unless it takes drastic action to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.

    The meaningless numbers appear in A New Choice: Australia’s Climate for Growth, which urges the government to “get on with stopping climate change”.

    “There is great opportunity for Australia to act on climate change today,” it enthuses, suggesting we incur $67bn in costs now to slash emissions and secure a gross domestic product and jobs boost of $680bn and 250,000, respectively.

    The report is flawed, misleading, reading more like a manifesto than a sober economic analysis.

    At a basic level, Australia can’t affect the trajectory of climate change whatever it does, having only 1.3 per cent of global emissions, or about 4 per cent including our coal exports”:

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/deloitte-climate-report-more-a-fearmongering-manifesto/news-story/88ce6bd86467ae249e17688c6519a435

    • Boambee John says:

      SD

      Perhaps Deloitte might provide details of its links with and revenue from climate related industry?

      Purely in the spirit of transparency, of course.

    • Neville says:

      SD that idiotic Deloitte report is typical of the BS and delusional nonsense we should expect from these pig ignorant extremists.
      Why do they always get away with this fanaticism, while anyone providing proper data and evidence from PR studies is hounded forever for speaking the truth?
      Just think of the problems that Dr Pielke got into for telling the truth about hurricanes, tornadoes,droughts, fires, floods, rainfall, snow and the big drop in deaths from extreme weather events etc over the last 100 years.
      And of course none of their so called mitigation of their so called “climate crisis” will make any measurable difference for thousands of years.

  • Neville says:

    I should’ve linked to Michael Shermer before now and his very intelligent interviews with Lomborg, Shellenberger, Ridley , Murray etc over recent months.
    Shermer is an intelligent lefty, but he has many friends who are conservative or libertarian and he has been a very good debater about religions over the years and I’ve really enjoyed these debates via you tube.
    Dawkins, Pinker, Ridley, Hitchens , Harris etc all seem to enjoy each other’s company and one on one with Shermer you can really learn a lot.
    Here’s his talk with Lomborg earlier this year and Shellenberger’s recent talk is also very interesting. Sadly Hitchens died a few years ago and he was a very hard bloke to toss and I admired him for taking on the Islam extremists and ditto for Hawkins and Harris.

  • Recently there was a scare about the possibility that chlorofluorocarbons used as the propellant gas in spray cans were going to bring serious harm to the ozone layer of the atmosphere. The world got its act together very smartly, and came up with the Montreal Protocol, banning their use.
    Moreover it is increasingly the practice these days for those planning to release a new chemical, drug or whatever onto the market to have it appropriately tested, for consumer protection.
    Unfortunately, nothing like this was around in the mid-Eighteenth Century, when the Industrial Revolution began and started venting large masses of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.
    There is little point in arguing the pros and cons of AGW on blogs like this. Suffice it to say that 198 scientific organisations world-wide, including the Royal Society, the AAAS and the CSIRO endorse AGW, leaving a few denialist scientists, many with coal and oil connections carrying the can for it.
    See https://sealevel.colorado.edu/
    The denialists and coal shills can always take refuge in the fact that the atmosphere-hydrosphere-biosphere-cryosphere-lithosphere assemblage is the most complex system we know about in the entire universe, with plenty of ideological hidey-holes in it and points on which to stand and take issue with this or that. But the simple fact remains that ever since the time of Arrhenius (c 1900) and his warnings that carbon dioxide is a heat-trapping gas, the fossil-carbon industry has been on the back foot; and will be so as the cryosphere steadily melts, and sea levels rise.
    As the English chemist-turned-Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher famously said, the planet should be given the benefit of any doubt.

    • Neville says:

      So Ian, please tell us what we can do about your concerns? The co2 data shows us that co2 levels have increased by about 65 ppm since 1988 and most of that increase has come from China and developing countries.
      The OECD countries have flat-lined over that period of 32 years, while the non OECD emissions have soared. So what do you advise us to do about it?
      Or have you thought of travelling to the non OECD countries and lecturing them about their transgressions? Good luck with that.
      Oh and the SH is already a net co2 sink , so I think we’ve already done our job. And the Zickfeld et al study etc also shows us that we could cease all human co2 emissions today and we wouldn’t see a drop in temp or co2 levels for thousands of years. Do you really want to waste 100s of trillions $ for a guaranteed ZERO return?
      And also there is no climate crisis at all.

    • spangled drongo says:

      Ian, what Neville said plus you should be a little more sceptical about the ability of satellites to correctly measure sea levels on an irregularly shaped globe with a constantly moving surface except by using large amounts of assumption.

      Just like our GIGO climate models.

      But try using this record of measurement of Mean Sea Level for the largest piece of ocean in the world for over a century and it shows that as at October 2020 Pacific MSL is actually 182 mm LOWER than it was at the beginning of the record, over a century ago:

      http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLD.shtml

      This is supported by the fact that coral atolls are also increasing in area.

      So sea levels and climate are not doing anything they haven’t done throughout civilisation when atmospheric CO2 was considerably lower.

      No climate scientist from Arrhenius onward has ever been able to come up with any empirical proof that CO2 warms the climate.

      Even NASA tells us that their models just don’t work:

      https://notrickszone.com/2019/08/29/nasa-we-cant-model-clouds-so-climate-models-are-100-times-less-accurate-than-needed-for-projections/

      And while CO2 may possibly have a slight effect of unknown quantity, there is nothing happening today, climate-wise, that hasn’t happened in spades throughout the CO2-starved Holocene.

  • Neville says:

    Scott Morrison tells the G 20 online summit that Australia has over achieved on our commitments to Paris COP 21.
    Of course this is irrelevant because the entire SH is already a co2 NET SINK, see CSIRO Cape Grim data. See Morrison’s comment at about 37 secs.

  • Neville says:

    Matt Ridley tells us why the UK’s extreme ,so called Green energy plans won’t work. Here’s the first 5 reasons.

    https://www.thegwpf.com/matt-ridley-ten-reasons-why-boriss-green-agenda-is-just-plain-wrong/

    Matt Ridley: Ten reasons why Boris’s green agenda is just plain wrong – The Global Warming Policy Forum (GWPF) (thegwpf.com)

    “Our fearless leader has descended from the mountain with a 10-commandment plan for a green industrial revolution. At a cost of £12 billion, he will have all Britons driving electric cars powered by North Sea wind turbines and giving up their gas boilers to heat their homes with ground-source heat pumps. He will invent zero-emission planes and ships. This vast enterprise will create 250,000 jobs. I am a loyal supporter of the prime minister, but this Ed Miliband policy makes no sense any way you look at it. Here are 10 reasons why.

    First, if it’s jobs we are after then spending £48,000 per job is a lot. Cheaper, as Lord Lawson put it, to create the same employment erecting a statue of Boris in every town. Anyway, it’s backwards: it’s not jobs in the generating of energy that count but jobs that use it. Providing cheap, reliable energy enables the private sector to create jobs for free as far as the taxpayer is concerned.

    Second, he misreads how innovation works, a topic on which I’ve just written a book. Innovation will create marvellous, unexpected things in the next 10 years. But if you could summon up innovations to order in any sector you want, such as electric planes and cheap ways of making hydrogen, just by spending money, then the promises of my childhood would have come true: routine space travel, personal jetpacks and flying cars. Instead, we flew in 747s for more than 50 years.

    Third, he is hugely underestimating the cost. The wind industry claims that its cost is coming down. But the accounts of wind energy companies show that both capital and operating expenditures of offshore wind farms continue to rise, as Gordon Hughes of Edinburgh University and John Aldersey-Williams of Aberdeen Busines School have found. Wind firms sign contracts to deliver cheap electricity, but the penalties for walking away from those contracts, demanding higher prices from a desperate grid in the future, are minimal and their investors know it. Britain already has among the highest electricity prices for business in Europe because of the £10 billion a year that electricity-bill payers spend on subsidising the rich capitalists who own wind farms; raising them further will kill a lot more than 250,000 jobs.

    Fourth, these policies will not significantly reduce the nation’s emissions, let alone the world’s. It takes a lot more emissions to make an electric car than a petrol one because of the battery. This is usually made in China. If the battery lasts for 100,000 miles – which is optimistic – and the electricity with which it is recharged is made partly with gas, then there is only a small saving in emissions over the lifetime of the car, according to Gautam Kalghatgi of Oxford University.

    Fifth, the plan will make the electricity supply less reliable. Already this autumn there have been power-cut near misses and there was a bad blackout in 2019. Costly diesel generators came to our rescue, but keeping the grid stable is getting harder, and in both Australia and California, blackouts have become more common because of reliance on renewables. Smart meters that drain your electric car’s battery to help keep other people’s lights on may help. But if you think that will be popular, Boris, good luck, and wait till the lights go out or the cost of heating your home goes through the roof”.

  • Neville says:

    Germany is finding the path to the Green rev is perhaps a mission impossible and the cost will be horrific. Great to see this happening in the EU and they deserve all the economic pain to come. I mean it’s not as if they weren’t told that this so called Green energy is fraudulent nonsense and won’t change the temp or co2 levels etc for thousands of years. OH and there definitely is no” climate crisis”.

    https://www.thegwpf.com/germanys-climate-consensus-cracks-as-costs-mount/

    Germany’s climate consensus cracks as costs mount – The Global Warming Policy Forum (GWPF) (thegwpf.com)
    Germany’s climate consensus cracks as costs mount

    Date: 22/11/20
    Bloomberg

    “Fretting over costs, Merkel’s Christian Democrats and her Economy and Energy Minister are unwilling to increase renewable energy targets, creating an impasse for the climate bill due to be passed next week”.

    “Germany is revamping expansion plans for wind and solar power over the coming decade, exposing differences within the government over just how much is needed to meet Europe’s carbon reduction goals.

    A bill now in parliament aims to set new targets and financial support for clean power to accommodate Europe’s plan to bump up carbon emission cuts to 55% by 2030. Lawmakers from Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition are divided over the targets’ scope, with Social Democrats backing energy think tanks and utilities calling for a much faster build out of renewables than earmarked in the bill.

    Led by Environment Minister Svenja Schulze, critics of the bill said the EU’s carbon reduction target entails Germany cutting pollution 65% by 2030, not by 55% as set out in the legislation. The higher target is the result of EU burden-sharing rules linked to the size of member states’ economies.

    Fretting over costs, Merkel’s Christian Democrats and her Economy and Energy Minister Peter Altmaier are unwilling to increase green power targets, creating an impasse for the bill due to be passed next week, and an unresolved fight over how wind and solar will grow this decade.

    Germany isn’t alone among the EU-27 to struggle with digesting the implications of the sweeping climate plans. EU leaders may delay a decision on the carbon targets slated for Dec. 10-11 amid divisions, a report said Thursday”.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Here is another reason why scientists disagree about CC:

    Saturday alone saw 35.8 cm (1.2 ft), a reading that smashed the community’s all-time daily record of 21.3 cm (8.4 inches) set on March 17, 1974 (solar minimum of cycle 20)–note, that record is for any day of year, not just for November.

    https://electroverse.net/winter-nightmare-hits-the-prairies/

    • Neville says:

      SD thanks for that link and this part is truly amazing. But I’m sure it still isn’t enough snow for the BS merchants and donkeys or they’ll soon change direction and claim that their colder, snowier climate is caused by our SUVs etc as well? See text below from your link.

      “The Kindersley storm delivered more snow in two days than during the whole of last winter, prompting some locals to call it the worst storm they’ve ever seen in the area (westcentralonline.com). The data coming out of Environment Canada are certainly proving that to be true, and while 47.6 cm is the official accumulation, blizzards conspired to create snowdrifts of over 5 feet in height”.

  • Neville says:

    Ken Stewart has started on another massive attempt to make sense of the BOM Aussie temp record and it looks to be another interesting journey over the next few weeks. Perhaps months, because it is a big task.

    Here’s his conclusion at the end of part 1.

    https://kenskingdom.wordpress.com/2020/11/23/acorn-mishmash-part-1-they-cant-all-be-right/

    Conclusion:

    “Decadal means show broad patterns of climate change in various regions but there are many examples of individual stations within these regions standing out from these patterns. They can’t all be right. The accuracy of the BOM’s ACORN-SAT dataset for maximum temperatures must therefore be called into question at a number of its stations. This must then throw doubt on the Bureau’s climate analyses and future projections.

    In future posts I will look more closely at some of these individual stations’ records”.

  • Neville says:

    It looks like Boris’ new 10 point plan is in a mess and starting to fall to pieces.
    Gotta love it when these fraudsters and con merchants run up against very simple maths and data.
    I can’t wait to see the clueless Biden donkey’s team start down this dangerous road and waste endless trillions $ for a guaranteed ZERO return on their delusional investments ( ????).

    https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-55020558

  • Neville says:

    Here’s more on the super dirty EVs and how much more it now costs to run these sponsors of the Congo cesspit mining disasters. Their OZ market share is ZIP and yet these vile environmental disasters already cost more to run than the BMW or Lexus ICE cars. And they still lie about the data. See below and the link.

    https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/teslas-now-more-expensive-to-charge-than-petrol-cars

    “A rival BMW 330i costs $8.00 per 100km assuming an average cost of premium unleaded of $1.38, one sourced from the NSW Government’s Fuel Check website.

    Consuming a claimed average of 5.8 litres per 100km – well below the 7.0L/100km figure used by the Tesla website – the BMW is 18 per cent cheaper to fuel than a Tesla is to recharge.

    Choose the hybrid-powered Lexus IS300h and that per-100km fuel cost drops to $6.76 – about 31 per cent less than the cost of a Tesla charged with a Supercharger”.

    • Neville says:

      BTW the above link about the dirty EV cesspit sponsors comparison is much worse, because all govts will soon impose an EXTRA LEVY CHARGE on EVs so future roads can be updated, repaired etc.
      But that is already part of your payment that’s built in every time you fill up your ICE car. THINK ABOUT IT long and hard before you consider buying a dirty, super expensive EV environmental disaster.
      OH and the battery will be heavily discounted when you decide to sell your dirty EV and you’ll lose heavily on the changeover to a new vehicle.

  • Neville says:

    I’m sure everyone will be pleased that the Biden donkey has named the Kerry donkey to be his special envoy on climate change. SARC
    Talk about the blind leading the blind in their mad rush to waste trillions $ on this non problem. But I’m sure this loon will hasten the wreckage of the US electricity grid in record time or ASAP.
    Oh and you wouldn’t be surprised to learn that Kerry has been working with the AOC donkey as they draw up their future plans. Gosh, what could possibly go wrong??

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2020/11/23/kerry-climate-change/

  • Neville says:

    North America has just had the highest snow cover since 1967. And yet the 1970s were supposed to be a period of high cover.
    Oh and the last 8 years seem to be higher as well. See the column graph since 1967 at link.

    https://climate.rutgers.edu/snowcover/chart_anom.php?ui_set=1&ui_region=namgnld&ui_month=10

  • Neville says:

    Here’s NH snow cover and Eurasia as well since 1967.

    Rutgers University Climate Lab :: Global Snow Lab

    Rutgers University Climate Lab :: Global Snow Lab

    • Neville says:

      Grrrrr that last attempt didn’t work, so you’ll have to click on the NH and Eurasia links from the North American link.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s Matt Ridley’s full list of rebuttals to the Tories so called new Green agenda. Or more honestly this will just be another clueless, super expensive disaster.
    When will these donkeys ever learn to conduct a proper cost/ benefit analysis before they throw endless more billions $ down the drain for another ZERO return?

    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/boris-s-green-agenda-is-just-plain-wrong/

  • Stu says:

    Nev, when are you going to admit your cult is losing the argument? Every one of your Ridley et al papers is bemoaning another commitment to clean energy. Only the cultists read that stuff, and it is clearly not influencing any decision making. Now there is a new USA admin and they have a climate czar. Right or wrong on the science and the projects the world is starting the shift to a low carbon future. State governments here are moving even if the Feds are a bit slow.

    Where do you go now with your argument. Perhaps it is a good time for you to explain your blind loyalty to coal and oil coupled with your total abhorrence of anything alternative. Why is it so? I am very curious to know.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      “Right or wrong on the science and the projects the world is starting the shift to a low carbon future.”

      Given the high cost and unreliability of ruinables, perhaps you should think carefully about this sentence, particularly the introductory clause.

      “Perhaps it is a good time for you to explain your blind loyalty to coal and oil coupled with your total abhorrence of anything alternative.”

      Given your blind loyalty to ruinables and batteries, which cannot provide reliable, continuous power needed for a modern economy in their present state of development, perhaps you should explain your total abhorrence of reality?

      PS, come up with even one example of a weather event that is completely unprecedented yet?

      • Stu says:

        Classic response from you, avoid the issue. Never mind who is right or wrong, whether batteries make economic sense or not, you are on the losing side of the argument, just admit it. I don’t mean “who has the best argument”, I mean which side is moving ahead in the real world as if the other does not exist. No need for me to provide any of the “evidence” you crave, but have none of yourself. I freely agree the denial side is not in retreat, in fact it is as loud as ever and you are a great example. But no one who matters (governments and policy makers, even industry) is listening to you and your group. So where is your case going? All of organised life is shifting to get to zero or at least reduced carbon. The world as a whole is totally ignoring your bleating. What are you going to do? I figure your answer is that you will die in the ditch proclaiming your righteousness. Good luck to you, but it must be disappointing for you, admit it.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          You say

          “All of organised life is shifting to get to zero or at least reduced carbon.”

          I will put aside the racism implicit in the phrase “all of organised life”, since you must be aware that only the developed, largely European, natiins are attempting economic suicide, and re-phrase your silly statement.

          “All of organised (sic) life is shifting to reduced electricity availability, and to intermittent and unreliable power sources.”

          And

          “whether batteries make economic sense or not”

          You favour economic suicide, just because ill- informed people place their (unjustified) faith in an inadequate power system? You first old chap, disconnect from the grid, and use your rooftop solar to charge your EV, and power your household.

  • Stu says:

    Once again you ignore the point. It matters not whether you might be correct or what I might think. In essence you think that the governments of the world have rejected the idea of doing anything about AGW and that your bleating has changed our direction and won the hearts and minds across to your way of thinking. Great, you are as deluded as Trump is about losing the election.

  • Neville says:

    I think we should forget about our stu-pid blog donkeys and concentrate on the REAL planet and leave these fools to their fantasies and fairy tales. Dr Hansen was correct when he likened DIRTY,UNRELIABLE S&W to stories about the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.
    We’ve provided real world proof and all the data and evidence to support our claims that there is no climate emergency or crisis at all. OH and Shellenberger Lomborg, Christy etc all agree that the IPCC data does not support the extremists either.
    BTW the clueless LW extremists are now urging Biden to declare a climate emergency ASAP and who knows what these delusional fools will dream up next?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-25/climate-groups-prod-biden-to-bolster-kerry-by-declaring-crisis?utm_source=CCNet+Newsletter&utm_campaign=d00977b76d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_11_26_02_48_COPY_04&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fe4b2f45ef-d00977b76d-36463321&mc_cid=d00977b76d&mc_eid=dcbe0ef09b

    • Stu says:

      “ We’ve provided real world proof and all the data and evidence to support our claims that there is no climate emergency or crisis at all.”

      YES, YES, YES, we get that, but comment on the fact that no one (of any importance) is listening to you. USA, after Jan 20 thinks there is a crisis and NZ is following, bringing them in line with Europe, Japan etc. Even here, with Canavan now in the wilderness, the government is shifting that way to match the various state government policies.

      So, please come back to the key point, even if you are right, which is most unlikely, the strategies you support are going nowhere. What do you do now? Bleat louder I guess. They do say martyrdom makes you feel all warm, does it?

      • Neville says:

        Well at least we have our stu-pid donkey now admitting there is no data that supports his fanatical extremism, but he still insists we agree with his delusional cult.
        My old man taught me long ago that you must not believe anything based on insufficient data and evidence.
        And he would’ve seen through this delusional nonsense very quickly and he wouldn’t have cared less about the cultists or what other ignorant fools were saying.
        And I have a very short fuse when you see con merchants and fraudsters planning to waste trillions $ that can only hurt the poor , the elderly and other vulnerable groups.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        Having re-read your barely comprehensible ramblings, I think that I have worked out the logic (using the word loosely) behind them.

        You seem to be saying that it doesn’t matter whether or not solar, wind, batteries or the other panaceas being offered by alarmists work or not. It doesn’t matter that they cannot provide the reliable, continuous electricity required to maintain a modern society.

        Rather, (Western) governments, prompted by a self nominated “elite”, and supported by brain dead lemmings like you, and by poorly educated millennials, have decided on a path of economic suicide. You ask what I will do now.

        I will do what any reasonable person would do. I will look to the welfare of my family, our children and grandchildren. Fortunately, we have a potential refuge in a country that has chosen a different course.

        As for those who have chosen to cause suffering among those poorer and less fortunate than themselves, I shall watch as opinion changes when power is intermittent, the lights and stove don’t work, food, and fuel for generators and transportation are unavailable, and our so-called “elites” discover the truth that civilisation is only ever seven days away from anarchy.

        I mentioned grandchildren above. Now that, with your apparent support, the path to ruin is chosen, will you be re-writing that letter to apologise for your stupidiity?

        PS, brush up on your Mandarin. Others will move in to claim the ruins of what once was a wonderful nation.

  • Neville says:

    I’ve tried to present the most accurate data for life expectancy over certain periods of time.
    In 1970 the average world life expectancy was 56.4 years and today that has increased to about 73 years. And this has taken place in just 50 years, so obviously no climate crisis at all.
    Of course in 1970 world pop was just 3.6 bn and today that has more than doubled to 7.8 bn. USE YOUR BRAINS AND THINK.
    And people in our poorest continent in 1970 lived on average to about 47 (pop about then 363 mil) and today life expectancy is 64 years and pop is 1340 mil or 977 mil more people than 1970. Again obviously no climate crisis or emergency. In fact the reverse is true.

  • Neville says:

    The Maldives today have had an amazing increase in life expectancy to 79 years or about the same as some other wealthy OECD countries.
    In 1970 the life exp in the Maldives was just 44 years, but in just 50 years they have gained another 35 years.
    Of course the Maldives were supposed to be one of the more vulnerable island states, but in fact SLR seems to be a minor problem and new air runways have been built and tourism has boomed over the last 20 years.
    But they have had a downturn this year because of CV-19. Hopefully this will be resolved in the next six months.
    Very interesting Maldives’ data through to 2100 at the link.

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/MDV/maldives/life-expectancy#:~:text=The%20current%20life%20expectancy%20for,a%200.36%25%20increase%20from%202018.

  • Stu says:

    You guys represent the peak of denialism. You will not slow down the flow of bull for a moment to even address the issue that the argument, right or wrong is slipping away from you. In other words you really think you are winning which is laughable, just like Trump. I see a similarity in approach. Ha

    • spangled drongo says:

      Stu,

      You silly Green New Dealers, thanks to your brainwashing of innocent kiddies, are only just coming to the point of power where you are able to make some laws to reflect your religious beliefs.

      It will take time for it all to go haywire but it will, nevertheless.

      Luckily you are not all at the same level of stu-pidity and with a bit of luck there may be some [as has happened many times recently] who suddenly realise the Green pathway is not what they thought.

      Seeing as you climate worshippers won’t listen to older wisdom, maybe this is the only way that eventual logic and rationality can prevail with minimum disaster.

      Your preferred option does not bear thinking about.

      Even for you.

      • Stu says:

        Oh, woe is us. That is like a Trumpian concession speech, well done. See you can do it.

        • spangled drongo says:

          I don’t have much control over what happens in US elections, stueyluv, but don’t count your chickens too soon.

          If you apply that rule you should also apply the Scomo one which is at least well confirmed.

          Just always bear in mind that for any theory, evidence observation and proof surpass consensus.

          But in those elections you may not even have consensus:

          https://joannenova.com.au/2020/11/the-kraken-is-released-on-georgia-and-michigan/#comments

          • Stu says:

            Now I know you are easily lead. Quoting Nova who is in turn referencing the recently sacked Sidney Powell is a give away. Have you actually read any of her (Powell’s) stuff. The whole thing is a total crock including the affidavits and will go no where. She was even an embarrassment to Guiliani and Trump, that tells you something. I especially like the bit where she accuses Hugo Chavez of being behind it. He died seven years ago. Try something more credible.

          • spangled drongo says:

            It’s one thing to fail to produce evidence as you always do, stueyluv, but evidence of a genuine complaint should and will be investigated.

            Why not just wait and see?

          • Boambee John says:

            I see that Stu is another electoral fraud denialist. He believes that Sleepy Joe the people sniffer is more popular than Shrillary in 2016 and Obama in 2008, having apparently got more votes than either of them in those years. He is also apparently more popular with inner city blacks than Obama was.

            Truly a miracle candidate!

        • Stu says:

          Well currently the Trump team is running with a win/loss ratio of cases in court of 1/38. Not a great result so far at least.

          • spangled drongo says:

            But as usual you are in denial of what really happened.

          • Stu says:

            SD wrote “ But as usual you are in denial of what really happened.”. Surely you cannot be serious. It is quite clear who is in denial over there and it seems you have joined him. Frankly amazing. But I suppose given everything else you profess belief in, it is not that surprising at all. Would you like to throw in some opinions on Qanon while you are it. I wait with bated breath.

            And BJ can’t seem to accept that perhaps it is not that people, African Americans included (I think he just called them blacks – which is instructive) are all that in favour of Biden but that maybe people are so sick of the mismanagement by Trump that they turned out in droves.

            I would just say we are a long way from there and our opinions are coloured by our sources of information. Be careful with your sources. And on that note it is interesting that the nightime Skynews guys now seem to be completely out of sink with their Fox counterparts. Perhaps Rupert speaks the truth when he says he does not control editorial policy. But I doubt it.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu, Stu, Stu

            You need to update your terminology. The phrase of the modern era is “People of Colour”.

            Jumped into that one, didn’t you smarty pants?

          • Stu says:

            BJ you wrote “blacks” not people of colour. Try again not so smarty pants.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu


            you wrote “blacks” not people of colour”

            And, full of your own self importance and PC rectitude, you corrected “blacks”, a term that was acceptable not long ago, to “African-Americans”, a term that also was acceptable not so long ago, falling into the trap of not noticing the existence of a new PC term.

            Fell into a trap?

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      I have addressed your silly points above.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        But you haven’t responded.

        Have you redrafted your letter to your grandchildren yet, apologising for your complicity in destroying their future?

        • Stu says:

          Once again displaying your poor understanding of the written word. My letter to them already offers contrition for the mess prior generations (I am assuming your are part of that and as old and fixed in thought as your opinions suggest) have made of the world. It also says there is hope the world will see sense and start to correct the failures. But on the other side there are classic reactionaries like you. They hide behind very myopic ideas such as the southern hemisphere is a net carbon sink so stuff the rest of the world. Remember there is only one earth. However I am a nobody and actually have no impact on the outcome. But I do believe that people like you who propagate the denialist view are doing harm. Climate people admit they could be wrong but agree that reducing carbon will at the least do no harm. Denialists on the other hand are convinced of the merits of their argument and cannot accept that there is any problem and wish to sail on down the path to disaster. Classic head in sand approach. Or do you really think you are a visionary?

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            About the only sensible thing you say is that eventually sense will prevail.

            As it did with Cannon-Brookes and his mad scheme to lay a high voltage cable thousands of kilometers across a tectonically active seabed. Engineering is an unfirgiving specialty. Reality will dawn when extensive blackouts become semi-routine, but hopefully in a limited region so that sense will prevail.

            Then the so-called “elites” and their lemming-like hangers on will be confronted with the reality of their impractical fantasies. Life for them will be tough when those suffering as a result seek vengeance.

            PS, your contrition should be for your complicity in destroying a working systen, whatever its faults, and replacing it with one that is incapable of providing the reliable, continuous power essential fod a modern society. You have been complicit in destroying their future, by your ignorance of basic engineering and scientific realities.

            But, you keep living your fantasy.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            “Climate people admit they could be wrong but agree that reducing carbon will at the least do no harm.”

            They have an interesting perspective on “do no harm”.

            Increasing the price of electricity, hitting the poor and unfortunate hardest. Destroying (actually exporting to countries with lower environmental standards) industry. Putting essential services like hospitals at risk of unreliable power for their meducal devices.

            And that ignores the reality of Third World children grubbing for minerals in dangerous conditions, and the problem of cleaning up obsolete wind generators and solar panels!

            I shudder to think of the devastation should they accept that some harm is necessary to achieve their aims.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Just more evidence that the denialists here really are incompetant laughing stocks …

    https://www.noaa.gov/media-release/record-breaking-atlantic-hurricane-season-draws-to-end

    And of course – all this will get worse in the coming decades.

    • Neville says:

      Here again is the data from Dr Pielke jnr about USA hurricanes and USA MAJOR hurricanes since 1900. And here’s his quote using NOAA data. This article was written on NOV 24th 2019. See graphs etc using NOAA data at link.

      “The graphs below show the data (updated from this paper, with data from NOAA). The past 14 years have seen the fewest landfalls of major hurricanes (3) of any such period since 1900. The 14 years ending 1928 saw 13 major hurricanes hit the United States”.

      Understand that” the past 14 years have seen the fewest landfalls of major hurricanes since 1900″. Or just 3 major hurricanes in recent lowest count compared to 13 major storms ending in 1928.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerpielke/2019/11/24/just-the-facts-on-hurricanes/?sh=1b3f1c4a551f

    • Boambee John says:

      Poor little Chrissy

      “incompetant laughing stocks …”

      But at least we can spell incompetent!

  • Neville says:

    More ignorance and groupthink idiocy from the clueless Guardian rag.
    This woman should throw a whopping big party because she no longer works for these censorious, delusional clowns. If this isn’t proof of the Guardian’s totalitarian instincts, then what is it?
    And yet some stu-pid donkeys think this is thoughtful journalism. Certainly shows clearly where these donkeys are coming from and what they really believe in?
    Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin etc would be pleased to see these modern followers promoting their groupthink ideology.

    https://www.foxnews.com/media/suzanne-moore-the-guardian

  • Neville says:

    Just to remind everyone of cyclone trends in our region since 1970.
    Here the BOM graph shows a clear downward trend since 1970 and for both CATs, or severe and non severe.
    Importantly the 2015 to ’16 season is the only season without any severe cyclones in the last 50 years.
    OH and the last SUPER cyclone hit the OZ NE coast about 200 years ago, when co2 levels were about 290 ppm. See ABC Catalyst and the work of Dr John Nott.

    http://www.bom.gov.au/cyclone/climatology/trends.shtml

  • Neville says:

    Sorry above should be co2 levels of 284 ppm in 1820. Levels of co2 didn’t reach 290 ppm until about 1879.

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu sez

    “YES, YES, YES, we get that, but comment on the fact that no one (of any importance) is listening to you. USA, after Jan 20 thinks there is a crisis and NZ is following, bringing them in line with Europe, Japan etc. Even here, with Canavan now in the wilderness, the government is shifting that way to match the various state government policies.

    So, please come back to the key point, even if you are right, which is most unlikely, the strategies you support are going nowhere.”

    In summary, it doesn’t matter if the sceptics are correct, it is full speed ahead (in the European based world) on renewables, so suck it up denialists.

    A scenario for Stu.

    It is July 2025. Liddell is gone in NSW, another major brown coal fired generating station is gone in Victoria. SA has a series of windless days and nights, and solar has limited output. Neither NSW nor Victoria has spare power.

    Are there sufficient CO2 emitting diesel and gas generators in SA to keep more than the minimum essential services (hospitals, police, ambulance going? Will supermarkets and families lose everything in their fridges and freezers? Is adequate diesel fuel available to bring in non-refridgerated food? If there is not enough power to keep fuel pumps operating, how quickly will SA collapse?

    Engineering reality bites. Will the alarmists just say “Suck it up proles”?

    • Stu says:

      You show a great tendency to view every issue as binary. Perhaps old fella you might better understand if I say black and white. There is no switch to be thrown that shifts our energy grid from what it is now to some future form. The change will happen gradually step by step and if you really think the generators, regulators and government will leave us in a perilous position you are crazy. But I forgot, you still think Trump is going to be president after January 20. On that score did you read the judgement in the latest case thrown out of court. Now 1 for 39 and sinking. Ah yes he says, “what about the Kraken”? What indeed. Powells notions of vote counting and the operation of voting machines is abysmal.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        It has obvioysly passed by your notice that SA is already in a perilous state, so it would seem that the “generators, regulators and government” have already slipped up.

        Still, it is amusing to watch Stu Micawber hard at it, ever confident that “something will turn up”. The reality that ruinables and batteries in their current sstateof development cannot provide reliable continuous power, that Liddell will orobably go in 2022, that at least one major Victorian generator could follow? Mere bagatelles, to be dismissed with a wave of the hand.

        And absolutely NO substantive response to my questions, because you don’t have a clue, you only have wishful thinking, and distractions about US politics.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          And still no recognition that the non-white (Am I allowed to use that term, or does it trigger you?) parts of the globe have no intention of joining the Western lemmings on the path to economic suicide. Perhaps they need someone of your eloquence to inform them that reliable, continuous power is an unnecessary luxury, needed only by those who see economic strength and economic ruin in black and white, sorry, binary terms.

  • Neville says:

    Wonderful aerial photos+video today of Noosa river mouth from 1973 to this month taken by Jennifer Marohasy.
    Jennifer has certainly changed in the last 47 years. See photo 1973 and end of the video.

    https://jennifermarohasy.com/2020/11/noosa-river-mouth-1973-yesterday/

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      PS, still nothing to say about C-B and engineering reality? You were so keen on his project not so long ago, now it seems to have gone down your capacious memory hole.

  • Chris Warren says:

    I do not know why I waste time reading anything our denialists post. But it is good to get the science right and not be confused by deliberate cherry-picking such as cited by Neville, the chief donkey here.

    Faced with the fact that the Atlantic Basin has just recorded a record number of hurricanes denialists cherry-pick from the full data set just “landfall” hurricanes which are not a representative sample. They peddle this because it suits their dogmas.

    A good presentation is from NOAA here:

    https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/wp-content/uploads/pix/user_images/tk/global_warm_hurr/Hurr_major_USland_count_w_Stats.png

    All this was sorted a long time ago, but we seem to have a few slow learners here.

  • Chris Warren says:

    More dirty tricks from denialists. Faced with increasing hurricanes in the Northern Hemisphere, they try to hide behind trends in the Southern Hemisphere when we know global warming is more severe in the Northern Hemisphere than the South.

    But in the North – apart from hurricanes – storms have also been increasing.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071004115913im_/http://www.pewclimate.org/docUploads/images/tropical-storms_013107_103737.gif

    Clearly our denialists have no idea what they are talking about.

    • Boambee John says:

      Chris

      “we know global warming is more severe in the Northern Hemisphere than the South.”

      So, are you saying that “global” warming differs between regions? Is it then Regional Climate Change, rather than global? That would be more sensible than rabbitting on about a world average temperature, which can only ever be crudely calculated, and should always have (potentially massive) error bands attached to it.

      • Chris Warren says:

        Stupid, stupid Boambee Johnny – Roy Spencer would not like his measurements of North and South slandered by the likes of you.

        • Boambee John says:

          Chrissy

          You continue to be as silly as always, I did not challenge “Spencer’s measurements of North and South”, I commented on your statement that there are differences, and suggested, as I have previously, that the concept of a global average temperature is not useful, and such averages should come with error bands.

          These seem to be fairly basic concepts.

  • Chris Warren says:

    And if you want to know why Northern storms and hurricanes are increasing – don’t be as stupid as Neville and look at the South, look at the increase in ocean temperatures from around 1990 (panel E) and compare it to the change in storms trend (posted above).

    Good science exposes all crooks and climate criminals.

    https://archive.is/0P6ee

  • Chris Warren says:

    There is now clear proof of catastrophic global warming. Sea ice now shows a firm trend lof melt at a rate of 3000 sq. km. per decade and as any scientist will tell you – once ice starts to melt due to heat it continues to melt until all is gone. We now have 40 years of data – to the die is cast.

    http://psc.apl.uw.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/schweiger/ice_volume/BPIOMASIceVolumeAnomalyCurrentV2.1.png

    And as any scientist will tell you – you cannot reduce global warming unless you reduce greenhouse gases.

    Let our denialists cherry-pick and squirm as much as they like – science shines through all their smoke and mirrors.

    • Boambee John says:

      Chris

      You forgot to mention that “Arctic sea ice has likely reached its minimum extent for the year, at 3.74 million square kilometers (1.44 million square miles) on September 15, 2020, according to scientists at the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) at the University of Colorado Boulder.Sep 21, 2020
      nsidc.org › news › newsroom › arcti…
      Arctic sea ice at minimum extent for 2020 | National Snow and Ice …”

      That is the likely 2020 minimum.

      At a melt rate of 3000 sqkms per decade, as cited by you, how many decades must pass before there is a major problem? And it won’t be a sea level problem, because the discussion is about sea ice.

  • stu says:

    Well said Chris, at least one person here is on the right side of history. Prediction, they will go berserk over that, particularly the siamese twins. Enjoy..

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      Still avoiding substantive responses to my earlier comments?

      • Stu says:

        Well, we won’t discuss evidence because you deny everything. But you must admit that Chris and I have the overwhelming weight of opinion on our side. Your “evidence” based sect is small and shrinking and I am sure you will not agree. It is not for me to dole out evidence for you to blithely dismiss, I simply follow the science, what is your excuse? But it is fun playing with you, although you bring the game back to draughts rather than chess. But still fun.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          You have repeated this consoling thought (to you) several times yesterday and today. You must be worried if you have to keep telling yourself how correct you are.

          Still nothing on Cannon-Brookes? Embarrassed by your earlier support?

          And still on the “science by opinion poll” bandwagon? You call that “following the science”? You are showing (yet again) your gross ignorance of science. But we all knew that already.

          Not discuss evidence? Nothing of substance to offer? Stop squirming.

  • Neville says:

    More recent hurricane data from Dr Pielke and Dr Maue and it is clear that there is no trend globally or in some areas the trend is down since 1970 and the 1950s. See the Japanese data at the link.
    See the graphs showing the trends. And the BOM trends are definitely down since 1970 for the Aussie region whether the donkeys like it or not.

    https://notrickszone.com/2020/11/13/study-on-hurricanes-in-journal-nature-plagued-by-massive-error-experts-says-cyclones-not-getting-worse/

  • Neville says:

    Here’s Dr Notts 6,000 year study of SUPER cyclones on the nth Qld coast and he has found evidence for dozens of these super storms hitting the coast.
    But the last of these hit the coast about 200 years ago, when co2 levels were just 284 ppm , so again definitely no correlation at all.

    https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/super-cyclone/11006020

  • Chris Warren says:

    More stupidity from Neville. Clearly he does not understand his own copy-paste from denialist websites.

    We know that denialists cherry-pick data to run their fabrications and it has been observed that “landfall” cyclones have a completely different pattern than all cyclones.

    The chart produced by Weinkle and Pielke is clearly marked “landfall”.

    And they still cannot explain all the world’s melting ice, warming lower atmosphere and cooling upper atmosphere.

    Denialists are a blight on the future humanity and a comedy show for todays.

  • Stu says:

    In case you missed this above.

    Well, we won’t discuss evidence because you deny everything. But you must admit that Chris and I have the overwhelming weight of opinion on our side. Your “evidence” based sect is small and shrinking and I am sure you will not agree. It is not for me to dole out evidence for you to blithely dismiss, I simply follow the science, what is your excuse? But it is fun playing with you, although you bring the game back to draughts rather than chess. But still fun.

    • Boambee John says:

      In case you missed this above.

      You have repeated this consoling thought (to you) several times yesterday and today. You must be worried if you have to keep telling yourself how correct you are.

      Still nothing on Cannon-Brookes? Embarrassed by your earlier support?

      And still on the “science by opinion poll” bandwagon? You call that “following the science”? You are showing (yet again) your gross ignorance of science. But we all knew that already.

      Not discuss evidence? Nothing of substance to offer? Stop squirming.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Notice Jhonny’s little quip…

    “Not discuss evidence? Nothing of substance to offer? Stop squirming.”

    Well here is evidence;

    http://psc.apl.uw.edu/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/schweiger/ice_volume/BPIOMASIceVolumeAnomalyCurrentV2.1.png

    Now discuss?????

  • Chris Warren says:

    So where does Johnny sit on the Dunning Kruger curve?

    Here is evidence – so; discuss ???

    https://www.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/v6.0/tlt/uahncdc_lt_6.0.txt

  • spangled drongo says:

    Are blith and stu stu-pid or just natural doomsters?

    How many peer-reviewed papers would you two like that show REAL EVIDENCE that early Holocene temps were considerably higher than today:

    https://notrickszone.com/2020/01/16/19-papers-published-in-2019-affirm-sea-levels-were-meters-higher-than-today-4-8-thousand-years-ago/

  • Neville says:

    Amazing GIGO by the donkeys again and again. The first 1 bn people in history were accounted for in 1800 and since that time another 6.8 bn are now alive today.
    Yet our donkeys yap about a climate crisis / emergency BS, while even the poorest continent on the globe has increased their population by 977 mil people in the last 50 years?
    So how is it possible to add 0.977 bn people in just 50 years ( in the poorest continent) if we are living through a climate crisis and after it has taken the entire recorded history to reach 1 bn by 1800?
    These donkeys are not only stu-pid but they seem to enjoy their regular display of ignorance of very simple maths + logic and reason again and again.
    They’re not worth our time and just play their stupid donkey games to try and divert us from their ignorant POV.

    • Chris Warren says:

      That was neville-nonsense yet again. How does any of that stop global warming and the extinction of the billions he pretends to care about.

  • Chris Warren says:

    So has Johnny run away??

    Why not discuss:

    https://www.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/v6.0/tlt/uahncdc_lt_6.0.txt

    Has he lost his keyboard???

    • Boambee John says:

      Little Chrissy

      No, I have not run away, just keeping a varied and productive life going.

      PS, learned to spell “incompetent” yet?

  • Chris Warren says:

    So bumbling bomabee thinks you understand ice loss science Arctic in the northern hemisphere by vague references to the Antarctic in the southern hemisphere ????

    And does not even produce any evidence – when IT WAS THIS INDIVIDUAL who said: “Not discuss evidence? Nothing of substance to offer? Stop squirming.”

    What a climate coward! Scared of science? Data phobia?

    • Boambee John says:

      Hissy fit

      Thank you, you have clarified that your earlier alarmism was only about Arctic sea ice. Now, how long at 300 sqkms pa before there is a major problem?

  • Stu says:

    So nev says “ So how is it possible to add 0.977 bn people in just 50 years ( in the poorest continent) if we are living through a climate crisis and after it has taken the entire recorded history to reach 1 bn by 1800?”

    What a classic example of poor logic and assuming unrelated events have a causal link.

    The fact is that such a world population explosion (enabled through many factors including better health care etc) is what makes future climate change so problematic. The “crisis” is that our time for ameliorating action is running out.

    But don’t worry Chris, we know Nev has a very narrow view and cannot be shifted, so I suggest you don’t bother trying.

    • spangled drongo says:

      Stueyluv, if you were capable of studying human history it just might dawn on you that the only humans that voluntarily reduce population are the ones that are the most successful and advanced through their own abilities.

      It’s called evolution and it will keep everything in order as long as the catastrophists and doomsters are kept under control.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Yes, it looks like that only the dregs of the denialists are left.

    Good fun kicking them into the gutter.

  • Boambee John says:

    Is Stu still enamoured of the abandoned Cannon-Brookes plan to run a high voltage power cable thousands of kilometres across a tectonically active sea bed to export ruinable power?

  • Chris Warren says:

    Poor ‘ol bumbleboambee,

    Looks like it did not even look at the Spencer data which would have demonstrated that global warming is warming all of the southern hemisphere except the south pole.

    That is all we are getting from this fellow now – data phobia compared with trash talk and fake calls of; ” “Not discuss evidence? Nothing of substance to offer? ”

    Well the evidence has been presented – so go to it kiddo.

    Leave all your denialsts tricks in their bag. You only magnify your stupidity.

    .

  • Stu says:

    Since so much of what is written in this space seems to follow Poe’s law people here might like this one also.

    https://cleantechnica.com/2020/11/27/replacing-a-coal-plant-takes-an-infinite-number-of-wind-turbines/

    Enjoy

  • spangled drongo says:

    This is how climate “science” communicates and spreads its wisdom these days:

    Climatologist Dr. Prof. Jean-Luc Edouard Germain Michel Mélice recently sent the following threatening comment to climate skeptic Marc Morano:

    Old fart,

    You must must remember me…if your brain is not completely fucked…

    I am going to write you in french, remember that french is the language of every educated gentleman… which is not your case.

    Je suis français et spécialiste en modélisation du climat et des océans, est-tu capable de comprendre ce que j’écris ?

    You are getting very old now, your also bald, looking more and more like the Donnie the con, the orange agent.

    In fact, you are typically an old mafiosi-type italian immigant.

    Of course, you have no scientific training, your brain is to small to understand science, your IQ is under 100 (I have that information).

    My scientist friends here in France welcoming you … with a baseball bat….

    Funny, we are all waiting for you if you have the stupid idea to travel to Europe…

    I am a NASA expert and travel many times in the USA…I know the addresses of your kids and of of yourself. So, try to be very careful…

    Donnie the don is terminated, this will be he case with yourself and the oil industry…

    Too bad for you.

    Dr. Prof. Jean-Luc Edouard Germain Michel Mélice

    You can immediately gauge the depth of intellectual capacity. Here are his details if anyone would like to respond:

    Permanent address: 96, avenue des Combattants, B-1332 Genval, Belgium

    Office Telephone No. +3226541555

  • Neville says:

    Again just for our stu-pid donkeys and even this from their clueless ABC. This just supports the many Holocene optimum SL studies that SD has linked to this morning. Here’s a quote for the donkeys about SLs on our east coast 4,000 years ago. Will these donkeys ever wake up?

    “Dr Macdonald: The date came back at about 4000 years ago, which was quite spectacular we were very surprised.

    Narration: 4000 years ago when Narrabeen Man was wondering around this area the sea levels were up to 1.5 metres higher than they are today”.

    https://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/narrabeen-man/11010512

    • Chris Warren says:

      Neville – if there was any so-called “SL studies” that a drongo referred to – remember in this case, the S L stands for Slow Learner.

  • Neville says:

    Again, here’s that 5 min Shellenberger video that tells us about the dirty, toxic S&W disaster and how this will destroy the environment.
    Big birds will be killed by the blades and smaller birds can be fried by the giant solar farms.
    These toxic disasters only last about 20 years and then have to replaced again and the dirty toxins are buried in landfills where the poisons leak into the ground.
    IOW these loonies think we can save the planet by ruining the environment forever.
    Oh and the USA would use 25% of their land to try and replace proper, reliable base_load plants. Of course that wouldn’t work properly at night or periods of poor wind or very cloudy still days etc.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Here’s one for a slow learner blitherer:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature07075

  • spangled drongo says:

    Something more to assist those that just don’t get it:

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080625140649.htm

  • Boambee John says:

    Funny, Stu was hot for science by opinion poll yesterday, but now that the implications of following AOC and the squad with the Green Nude Eel might be becoming clearer, he seems to have backed off. And he still hides his embarrasment at having pumped up the Cannon-Brookes ruinables export plan that lasted barely a couple of months before being dropped. Did C-B talk to an engineer? Would Stu understand if he talked to one?

    • spangled drongo says:

      BJ, I think that stu and blith privately admit their anti-sci catastrophism but in order to brainwash the kiddies into voting green they don’t dare allow rationality, let alone evidence, to become part of the debate.

      So they have to lapse into long quiets.

      • Stu says:

        Typical far right thinking and expression, everything is down to the “greens”, right! Remind me, how many places are they in power or even influence? No mate you have it all wrong , logical thinking is just becoming mainstream on both left and right and you and your religious cult have become the outlier “greens”, if not in name, certainly in lack of representation. Perhaps we should call you the darks. You still have not explained your radicalism. Your totally binary view of everything is very limiting.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu back to science by opinion polling.

          It’s about the level of his scientific knowledge.

          • Stu says:

            No, it is just that you sound like a walking, talking version of Skynews, perhaps they will offer you a job you are so good at echoing their editorial line.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu has his predictable “hate groups”.

            QANON? Never been there, but Stu knows all about them. Sky News? I don’t watch TV news, it was pathetic last time I looked, but Stu is all over Sky like a rash.

            Are you trying to “come out” as a conservative Stu? Go on, you know you want to, rationality is so much better than hysterical fear of the improbable.

          • Boambee John says:

            Oh, so sorry, I forgot to mention the eeevilll Mudrock, he of the blackest of black hearts (can I still say that?)

  • Neville says:

    More interesting data/evidence/ graphs from a number of recent studies about sea ice extent, sea temp and some glacier info.
    Overall today sea ice extent in the Arctic is slightly down on the LIA ( highest for 10,000 years) in a number of the studies but is higher today than most of the Holocene period. For example see Stein graph etc at link.
    BTW Dr Christy used the 2017 Stein et al study and graph during his talks in London and Paris last year. Here’s the link and graphs to the studies.

    http://notrickszone.com/2017/11/30/2-more-new-papers-affirm-there-is-more-arctic-ice-coverage-today-than-during-the-1400s/#sthash.yS4LGZe7.dpbs

  • Neville says:

    AGAIN here’s Willis Eschenbach’s article at WUWT checking the Greenland Holocene temps compared to recent years. He uses Vinther et al study.
    The Holocene temp and co2 graph are very revealing over that long period of time.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/08/greenland-is-way-cool/

    • spangled drongo says:

      Good links, Neville.

      Well blith?

      No response, hey?

      You wouldn’t be the one you just described above?

      Would you?

      “What a climate coward! Scared of science? Data phobia?”

      What a hypocrite!

  • Boambee John says:

    Little Chrissy seems to be having another hissy fit.

    He still hasn’t offered any response on how long it will take for a problem to arise when minimum sea ice cover of 3.74 million square kilometers in the Arctic declines at 300 sq kms per annum.

    Perhaps his degree didn’t cover simple arithmetic?

  • Neville says:

    A lot of data/evidence/graphs from the Friends of Science group Canada.
    Note the SAT SL data does not include the GIA adjustment. Interesting but some of the data is a bit old, but the NH/ Arctic/Greenland will be very interesting when the AMO changes to cool phase.
    Dr Curry has made a study of the AMO and thinks it could change soon, but who knows? Time will tell.

    https://friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=712

  • Neville says:

    Here’s the 2006 Vinther Greenland thermometer temp study since 1784. It’s important to remember that Dr Jones and Dr Briffa were part of this study and it made some very interesting conclusions. Here’s the abstract and then the conclusions. Note the temp record is VERY robust and the warmest year was 1941 and the warmest decades were the 1930s and 1940s. And don’t forget the cool AMO is due……..?
    OH and co2 levels were a little over 300 ppm in 1940s.

    https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2005JD006810
    Abstract

    [1]”At present, continuous instrumental temperature records for Greenland reach back to the late nineteenth century at a few sites. Combining early observational records from locations along the south and west coasts, it has been possible to extend the overall record back to the year 1784. The new extended Greenland temperature record is 9% incomplete. There are, however, sufficient new data (an additional 74 complete winters and 52 complete summers) to provide a valuable indication of late eighteenth century and nineteenth century seasonal trends. Comparison of the previously published records with additional observational series digitized from Danish Meteorological Institute Yearbooks has also revealed inhomogeneities in some of the existing twentieth century temperature records. These problems have been eliminated in the new extended Greenland temperature record. A long homogeneous west Greenland instrumental temperature record is of great value for the interpretation of the growing number of Greenland ice core records. A first comparison of the new record with highly resolved Greenland ice core data is presented. Correlations between west Greenland winter temperatures and the ice core winter season proxy are found to be r = 0.67 and r = 0.60 for the periods 1785–1872 and 1873–1970, respectively”.

    7. Conclusion

    [49]” Using old temperature observations from early observers, the existing Greenland temperature records have been extended back to the year 1784. Gaps remain, mostly during summer and autumn. In the process of creating the long record, a few inhomogeneities were identified and corrected. Most of the homogeneity problems were due to changes in the hours at which temperature observations were carried out.

    [50] Comparison against winter season ice core proxy data showed stable and highly significant correlations throughout the period covered by the extended Greenland temperature series. This marked consistency, r = 0.67/0.60 for the extended/existing data, shows that both the ice core data and the extended temperature series are very robust.

    [51] The warmest year in the extended Greenland temperature record is 1941, while the 1930s and 1940s are the warmest decades. Two distinct cold periods, following the 1809 (“unidentified” volcanic eruption and the eruption of Tambora in 1815 make the 1810s the coldest decade on record”.

  • Chris Warren says:

    When Neville acts like an adult and cites real research without his usual slanders or copy-paste from denialist websites, we should take notice.

    His link to https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2005JD006810 demonstrates that Greenland is warming at a rapid rate.

    The temp data is in table 8.

    For the 5 decades 1861-1910 annual temp average was -2.8

    For more recent decades 1911-1960 the average was -1.2 ==> MUCH WARMER

    For the 5 decades 1861-1910 average temp for summer (June July August) was +5.9

    For the more recent decades 1911-1960 the average was +7.0 ==> MUCH WARMER

    All this warming is in contradiction of the expected natural trend due to orbital changes.

    The extra point of 1940-1 heat maximum is a common feature and can be found in temp time series for Australia as well.

    • Neville says:

      D 1 missed out on the TWENTY YEARS from 1930 to 1950 that were the warmest in the Vinther Greenland record.
      And for the following 55 years to the end of the study the temp was lower than 1930 to 1950 period.

  • spangled drongo says:

    In spite of hundreds of scientific papers supporting the MWP world-wide, our blith is determined, like Michael Mann, to eradicate it.

    I could supply hundreds of papers that show him the error of his ways but I just provided 600 non-warming graphs for him.

    When he simply prefers ignorance, you can only go so far.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Dr. David Deming tells you about it here, blith:

    • Neville says:

      Thanks for reminding me about that quote from Dr Deming SD.
      Their so called mitigation of their so called CAGW is the greatest fraud and con trick in history. And with the Biden donkey we’ll see further trillions $ poured down the drain for a further ZERO return.

  • Neville says:

    More on Greenland temps over the 20th century up to 2005. Dr Chylek’s 2006 study found that the warming from 1995 to 2005 was not unprecedented and the rate of warming from 1920 to 1930 was 50% higher than the later ’95 to 2005 rate.

    https://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/Chylek/greenland_warming.html

    Here’s the abstract.

    Abstract:
    “We provide an analysis of Greenland temperature records to compare the current (1995-2005) warming period with the previous (1920-1930) Greenland warming. We find that the current Greenland warming is not unprecedented in recent Greenland history. Temperature increases in the two warming periods are of a similar magnitude, however, the rate of warming in 1920-1930 was about 50% higher than that in 1995 – 2005”

    But he also noted that ….

    [17] iii) “Although the last decade of 1995-2005 was relatively warm, almost all decades within 1915 to 1965 were even warmer at both the southwestern (Godthab Nuuk) and the southeastern (Ammassalik) coasts of Greenland.

    [18] iv) The Greenland warming of the 1995-2005 period is similar to the warming of 1920-1930, although the rate of temperature increase was by about 50% higher during the 1920-1930 warming period”.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Greenland temperatures now show a warming of an amazing 4.4C in winter over 30 years and 1.7C in summer.

    In due course, this will eclipse past Holocene experience as modern warming is due to GHGs, not orbital influences (which naturally reversed).

    See: “They found that Greenland coastal regions warmed significantly by about 4.4 degrees Celsius (degC) in winter and 1.7 degC in summer from 1991 to 2019.”

    at: https://archive.is/NSaeL#selection-233.278-233.428

    Once land ice starts to melt due to heat – it does not stop unless the heat is reduced.

    • Stu says:

      Time to give up Chris, you cannot change the view of those who totally refuse to recognise reality. Just relax in the knowledge that day by day the impact of change in climate is accelerating. Not that that is a very happy scenario. And most of these fogies will not be around to confront the error of their ways. But as I have written, each day the pendulum of opinion and policy is shifting and their position is becoming more isolated. Only in the very narrow echo chambers do they have even the smallest of audiences. And sadly (to admittedly be very provocative and not accusing those playing here of that sin) there is a link between climate denial and covid denial with predictable outcomes. The USA never ceases to amaze.

      So just realise you cannot argue with someone fixated on an anti-science agenda, for whatever undisclosed reason. And never forget the influence of religion. But on the latter take note of the conflict between the position of the catholic pope and even the Supreme court in USA. Amazing stuff.

      • spangled drongo says:

        “you cannot change the view of those who totally refuse to recognise reality.”

        Stueyluv, I would have thought that EVIDENCE is reality. Y’know, that stuff you can NEVER come up with.

        “But as I have written, each day the pendulum of opinion and policy is shifting and their position is becoming more isolated.”

        Latest Newspoll; Scomo 60%, Albanese 28%.

        “And never forget the influence of religion.”

        Time for confession, stueyluv?

        • Stu says:

          Oh do shut up, I wrote to Chris, not you. And by the way “ Most Australian states support greater use of renewable energy but the federal government has refused to match other developed countries in setting a target for net zero carbon emissions by 2050. Instead, Canberra says zero emissions will be reached some time after 2050. Australia is so far well short of meeting its Paris accord target of cutting carbon emissions by 26% to 28% from 2005 levels by 2030.
          U.S. president-elect Joe Biden could encourage Australia to meet its emissions targets, the Australian Industry Group said, as he has said his administration will rejoin the Paris climate deal and aim to achieve zero emissions by 2050.” – Reuters

          Last time I checked Scomo is quite out of step with the state governments, and we do live in a federal arrangement, so I guess Scomo is losing, never mind your “voting” figures. But he will come around. What about you?

        • Boambee John says:

          SD

          I see that Stu is still whistling past the graveyard with his science by opinion poll.

          It keeps him happy, we should not deny him his simple pleasure.

          • Stu says:

            So, back to the question. Never mind the science (we are correct) global government action is aligning against the denialist view. The question once again is “so what are you going to do now?’ I guess the answer is to continue raging against the light. Good luck and are you sure you are not Poes” . It would be a good strategy going forward for losers to retrospectively claim enlightenment. Apologies if that is too subtle for you Baby John.

          • spangled drongo says:

            Consensual stu sez; “Never mind the science (we are correct) ”

            Ah, the hubris!

            Read and learn about your stu-pid philosophy here:

            https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2019/11/welcome-to-shut-up-country/

  • spangled drongo says:

    Here’s what the climate religious do in Greenland, blith:

    https://realclimatescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Nuuk-2011-2016.gif

  • Neville says:

    That study linked by D1 wrecks his delusional nonsense in the very first sentence and here it is.

    “New analysis of almost 30 years’ worth of scientific data on the melting of the Greenland Ice Sheet predicts global sea level rise of at least 10 centimetres by the end of the 21st Century if global warming trends continue.”

    That 10cm of GLOBAL SLR by 2100 is about 4 inches or about 1.25 mm / year and that’s exactly what Dr Humlum has been telling us for years. And is about the same result as the last 100 years. Wake up to yourself and stop posting this nothing doing nonsense.

    Of course once the AMO changes to cool phase all bets are off and then until 2050 and beyond a cool phase could change their guesstimates completely.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s a very interesting way to understand the AMO and so far the difference between the much lower positive values at present compared to the previous warm phase AMO.
    This is from Wiki but Dr Humlum also shows the present warm phase values the same way or lower than the previous warm phase.
    Perhaps this is why Dr Curry seems to expect a drop to the next cool phase to be sooner rather than later? It seems to look that way with this graph but unfortunately it ends in 2017.
    But little wonder the 1920 to 1950 Greenland temps were highest in those 2 studies I linked to above when you look at the AMO graph.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Atlantic_Multidecadal_Oscillation.svg

  • Chris Warren says:

    Notice how Neville immediately drags every tone down into the gutter. What he calls “nothing doing nonsense.” is in fact – true science.

    We know that seas level rise is accelerating. See “We find a persistent acceleration in GMSL since the 1960s” at:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-019-0531-8

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      “We know that seas (sic) level rise is accelerating.”

      Yet, strangely, it doesn’t show on the guages. It’s a mystery, perhaps the data need to be homogenised?

  • spangled drongo says:

    Blith blithers; “We know that seas level rise is accelerating.”

    He will believe his “science” yet he can’t be bothered to look outside where mean sea levels have fallen for the total history of record:

    http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLD.shtml

  • spangled drongo says:

    Idiots removing themselves from the gene pool can only be good for our future. It should be made compulsory:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8996309/Climate-change-apocalypse-stopping-young-people-having-children-new-study-claims.html

  • Neville says:

    Silly D1 bombs again, but this time it’s the last sentence of the abstract.
    They claim sth ocean circulation changes and sth westerlies etc and nothing about ice melting and adding to the SLR. See below.

    “We show that the initiation of the acceleration in the 1960s is tightly linked to an intensification and a basin-scale equatorward shift of Southern Hemispheric westerlies, leading to increased ocean heat uptake, and hence greater rates of GMSL rise, through changes in the circulation of the Southern Ocean”.

  • Neville says:

    We’re told that today there’s a climate crisis and the kiddies and AOC etc tell us we only have about 11 years left and we must do SOMETHING.
    So what’s REALLY been happening since 1950 in the REAL world and in our poorest continent Africa?

    In 1950 world pop was 2.5 bn and Africa 227 mil.

    1950 human life exp was 45 and Africa was 38.

    1970 ” ” ” was 56 and Africa was 47

    1990 ” ” ” was 64 and Africa was 52

    2000 ” ” ” was 66 and Africa was 53

    2020 ” ” ” was 73 and Africa was 64.

    And in 2020 there are now 7.8 bn people in the world and everyone is wealthier, healthier, better fed, and living longer lives etc.
    And 5.3 bn more people are alive today compared to 1950. And Africa’s pop has increased by 1.1 bn since 1950 and 977 mil since 1970.
    There is definitely no CLIMATE CRISIS TODAY and anyone who thinks so should have their head examined.

  • Neville says:

    BTW the UN data tells us that we will be living to about 82 in 2100. That’s the world average.
    And wealthier countries’ citizens will living to high 80s to
    90+.
    Oh and everyone will be much richer according to the data.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy-at-birth-including-the-un-projections

  • Chris Warren says:

    Neville is off on an irrelevant vexatious tangent …. catastrophe is inevitable if this continues

    https://archive.is/B1Hqj

    • Boambee John says:

      Reading through your discursive dismissals of any non-“approved” thought induces boredom rather than fear of a catastroohe.

      How much of the Arctic sea ice has to disappear before we get your catastrophe?

      And Stu is still silent about his embarrasing support for the now cancelled Cannon-Brookes ruinable export plan.

      • Chris Warren says:

        Usual nonsense. The Globe warms due to GHGs – the climate changes and it will all continue as long as CO2 either remains at current levels or increases.

        Denialists have reached the end of the road, they now risk falling off the cliff.

        • Boambee John says:

          Chrissy

          Even if (big if) you actually are correct, you need to think (yeah, I know, you find that difficult) the problem through.

          Put aside the fantasy “nett zero by 2050) targets. They will only be achieved by wide use of nuclear power by the western nations. The rest will continue to build fossil powered generators, and CO2 emissions will continue to rise.

          The only practical measure is adaptation, not mitigation. But that does not suit your wider ambitions, does it?

  • spangled drongo says:

    This period of the year is the anniversary of “Climategate”. That shining example of “science” at its best.

    And they’re still at it.

    As Pat Frank says; “Progressives are hell bent on destroying the West and its principled individual freedom.”

    “There is no doubt that these emails are embarrassing and a public-relations disaster for science.” – Andrew Dessler, “Climate E-Mails Cloud the Debate,” December 10, 2009.

    “What Climategate revealed, however, is that the climate change ‘experts’ we’re supposed to trust just aren’t trustworthy. They lie, they cheat, they’re motivated more by grant-troughing and dodgy political activism than they are by — lol — the disinterested quest for knowledge. That was the real shocker at the time of Climategate: that the people on whose ‘expert’ wisdom trillions of dollars worth of your money and my money are being spent on sundry green boondoggles are in fact a lousy bunch of fraudulent second-raters unfit to run a cookie bake sale, let alone a scam involving upwards of one percent of the global economy.”

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/11/30/climategate-another-anniversary-never-forget/

  • Boambee John says:

    For Chrissy and Stu

    “Extensive radar surveys on five glaciers in the Columbia River Basin has found the ice is 38 per cent thicker than originally believed, according to a new study from the University of Northern British Columbia.

    Lead author Ben Pelto and his colleagues skied cross country on the glaciers over 182 kilometres, pulling a sled-mounted ice-penetrating radar system to collect thousands of measurements.”

    And, the takeaway quotes.

    “Those models work pretty well in the absence of data, but you don’t really know how thick the ice is until you measure it,”

    “I was surprised that the models were off by that much,” said Pelto, who completed the work with support from the University of Victoria’s Pacific Institute for Climate Solutions and from B.C. Hydro.”

    Models might be (partially) useful for indicating directions for research, but actual measurements are reality. Models are not.

  • Stu says:

    As usual, Bojangles has selectively quoted to suit whatever he is trying to argue. Pelto further down article also wrote “Our study aligns with evidence from separate studies which found that glaciers in the basin will lose 60 to 100 per cent of their ice by 2100, depending on green-house gas emissions,” Pelto explains. “Disappearance of these glaciers will negatively affect the basin’s surface hydrology, freshwater availability and aquatic ecosystems, potentially affecting fish stocks and habitat.”

    Further the revised “thickness’ was not a result of “poor models” but lack of physical data.

    Fact remains the glaciers are disappearing rapidly.

    And Nifty Nev has drawn a direct line between growth in world population/life expectancy and climate. Mate don’t try and get a PhD with that argument.

    • Boambee John says:

      Poor old Stu, he really is not capable of “getting it”.

      I deliberately left that bit out, so that you or Chrissy could latch onto it and scream in triumph.

      The “melt rate” is also based on a model. Is that model any more useful than the one described as “I was surprised that the models were off by that much”?

      And as for “Further the revised “thickness’ was not a result of “poor models” but lack of physical data.” Well whoopy do! The whole point was that the model was used in the absence of “physical data”, and was found to be off by 38%, a fairly significant amount.

      You should have said nothing, and be thought a fool. Instead you rushed into words, and proved yourself to be one.

      I wonder if Cannon-Brookes’ model of government “co-investment” was off by more than 38%, leading him to dump that silly scheme you were touting like snake oil not so long ago?

      Dumbo!

      • Stu says:

        “ I deliberately left that bit out, so that you or Chrissy could latch onto it and scream in triumph.”
        Oh hahaha. Anyone who believes that, I have a bridge to sell you. Because you do it all the time. Are you sure you are not a subscriber to Poe’s law?

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu again moves to cover his embarrasment, and still declines to comment on the C-B farce.

          PS, whether or not you beliwve what I wrote is a matter of utter uninterest to me, it is what it is.

  • Neville says:

    I think that we’ll never get any sense out of DI and D2 and they are a clueless duo who understand ZIP about our past, our present and future.
    As I’ve shown using the most up to date data the 7.8 bn people of the world are today much healthier, wealthier and live longer lives than at any time in history.
    But the data for future projections are truly amazing and today 55% of world pop is urbanised and that will grow to about 66% by 2050. In just 30 years.
    Today the wealthy OECD countries have very high urbanisation of 80% to 85% and as urbanisation increases for all countries they too will enjoy increasing wealth + increasing life expectancy over the next decades and out to 2100.
    There obviously isn’t any climate crisis at all and in fact the reverse is true, just check the REAL WORLD data/evidence, since 1800 or 1900 or 2,000.

    https://ourworldindata.org/urbanization

  • Chris Warren says:

    More proof (in the case of Australia). According to BOM;

    “The national mean temperature for November was the highest on record for Australia as a whole, at 2.47 °C warmer than average (previous record was +2.07 °C in 2014).”

    So how can denialists explain this (a jump of 0.4C in 6 years) given there is no El Nino?

  • Neville says:

    BJ you beat me to it and in this terrible 2020 year we will grow the second highest yielding wheat crop or perhaps a record crop?
    We’ll know for sure by Christmas and our farmer numbers today are tiny and just more PROOF that there isn’t a climate crisis here or around the world.
    In fact for the tiny number of OECD food and fibre producers things are improving all the time.

    • Stu says:

      Oh nev do use your head please. “ ….we will grow the second highest yielding wheat crop or perhaps a record crop?
      We’ll know for sure by Christmas and our farmer numbers today are tiny and just more PROOF that there isn’t a climate crisis here or around the world.”

      Really? The crop is a result of weather (suitable at the key time) not climate change (or in your words a lack of), amongst other factors. So what do you say about last years terrible NSW crop, or in fact the poor crops this year in Qld and WA. Presumably you are not arguing the crops in the latter two states are indicative of climate change. You are so inconsistent.

      Oh and “our farmer numbers are tiny”. Yes indeed. Back to where we argued months ago, yields are influenced by better grain varieties, fertilisers, and better (and bigger) machinery for tilling, planting and harvesting. We have moved on from the horse drawn combine harvesters of your early adulthood.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu leading with his chin again.

        “The crop is a result of weather (suitable at the key time) not climate change (or in your words a lack of), amongst other factors. So what do you say about last years terrible NSW crop, or in fact the poor crops this year in Qld and WA.”

        As I have pointed out, the concept of a uniform “global climate change” is pseudo- scientific rubbish. There might be a range of regional changes and weather variations around the world, and even in a large nation like Australia.

        So if weather prodeced good crop yields in Australia this year, it could also have caused poor yields last year. It could even cause differing yields in different parts of Australia in a single year.

        But, feel free to continue blindly “keeping the faith”.

        No comment on the C-B back down?

        • Stu says:

          “ So if weather prodeced good crop yields in Australia this year, it could also have caused poor yields last year. It could even cause differing yields in different parts of Australia in a single year.”

          Bloody hell OF COURSE. I agree with that, but if you learn to comprehend what you read you will see I was commenting on Neville saying “… and just more PROOF that there isn’t a climate crisis here or around the world.” Meaning the ups and downs of cropping relate to weather, while long term trends in yield will be affected by multiple changes including climate change, but detecting the signal clearly is difficult because of all the factors at play. To put that another way, the changes in crop yields year to year are not a good indicator of climate change one way or the other. He drew a bad conclusion, a bit like his (or was it your) correlation between world population growth and climate (not) proving no change.

          So who is leading with the chin? You are so blinded by your faith that you misinterpret what other people write just because they are not believers in your cult. Your bias misleads your understanding. You miss the point and worse misrepresent things time and time again. But we are getting used to it.

          • spangled drongo says:

            Stu feels sure that climate is affecting crop yields. Not all negative though, hey stu?

            Some up, some down. And the right model loaded with the right assumptions would be bound to come up with the “right” answers, hey?

            The only trouble for you is that crops are known to improve with more CO2 and warmth than with less.

            In recent years crops have increased many times per acre on their old levels and it’s not all due to better farming methods.

            “One of humanity’s most pressing challenges is the need to produce enough food to sustain a
            growing population without using additional land and freshwater resources that are vital to
            world’s natural ecosystems, and that protect untold numbers of species from extinction.
            To meet this challenge the world must engage in a united effort to increase crop yields on
            existing farmland per unit of land area, per unit of nutrients applied and per unit of water used.
            The only way of successfully accomplishing this task is to invest the effort and capital required
            to identify, and to then grow, the major food crop genotypes that respond most strongly to
            atmospheric CO2 enrichment. Elevated atmospheric CO2 concentrations have conclusively been
            shown to stimulate all three of the factors needed to maintain global food security: (1) raising the
            land-use efficiency of agriculture by increasing plant photosynthesis, biomass and yield, (2) increasing plant nutrient-use efficiency, which also stimulates yields per unit of nutrients applied
            or that are available in nutrient-deficient soils, and (3) enhancing plant water-use efficiency,
            which enables greater yields under the same or reduced unit of water applied, and which helps
            counteract the growth-inhibiting impacts associated with water stress.
            Consequently, it would appear that a continuation of the current upward trend in the
            atmosphere’s CO2 concentration is essential for securing future food security.”

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Perhaps you could offer a few examples of the “climate crisis” from the extensive files of the IPCC et al.

            And Chrissy rabbiting on about 200 foot high sea walls is not a valid example.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s Lomborg’s PR PDF about the future world and how much more prosperous everyone will be as we move towards 2100. Much more detail using proper data and evidence from all sources like the IPCC, UN etc.

    This is the Abstract and the link and it is very optimistic compared to the nonsense we read in the MSM and from LW pollies and clueless urgers , con merchants etc.

    file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/Lomborg2020Peer-reviewedclimatearticle.pdf

    “Welfare in the 21st century: Increasing development, reducing inequality, the impact of climate change, and the cost of climate policies Bjorn Lomborg The Copenhagen Consensus Center, Copenhagen Business School, Hoover Institution, Stanford University”.

    “ABSTRACT Climate change is real and its impacts are mostly negative, but common portrayals of devastation are unfounded. Scenarios set out under the UN Climate Panel (IPCC) show human welfare will likely increase to 450% of today’s welfare over the 21st century. Climate damages will reduce this welfare increase to 434%. Arguments for devastation typically claim that extreme weather (like droughts, floods, wildfires, and hurricanes) is already worsening because of climate change. This is mostly misleading and inconsistent with the IPCC literature. For instance, the IPCC finds no trend for global hurricane frequency and has low confidence in attribution of changes to human activity, while the US has not seen an increase in landfalling hurricanes since 1900. Global death risk from extreme weather has declined 99% over 100 years and global costs have declined 26% over the last 28 years. Arguments for devastation typically ignore adaptation, which will reduce vulnerability dramatically. While climate research suggests that fewer but stronger future hurricanes will increase damages, this effect will be countered by richer and more resilient societies. Global cost of hurricanes will likely decline from 0.04% of GDP today to 0.02% in 2100. Climate-economic research shows that the total cost from untreated climate change is negative but moderate, likely equivalent to a 3.6% reduction in total GDP. Climate policies also have costs that often vastly outweigh their climate benefits. The Paris Agreement, if fully implemented, will cost $819–$1,890 billion per year in 2030, yet will reduce emissions by just 1% of what is needed to limit average global temperature rise to 1.5°C. Each dollar spent on Paris will likely produce climate benefits worth 11¢. Long-term impacts of climate policy can cost even more. The IPCC’s two best future scenarios are the “sustainable” SSP1 and the “fossil-fuel driven” SSP5. Current climate-focused attitudes suggest we aim for the “sustainable” world, but the higher economic growth in SSP5 actually leads to much greater welfare for humanity. After adjusting for climate damages, SSP5 will on average leave grandchildren of today’s poor $48,000 better off every year. It will reduce poverty by 26 million each year until 2050, inequality will be lower, and more than 80 million premature deaths will be avoided. Using carbon taxes, an optimal realistic climate policy can aggressively reduce emissions and reduce the global temperature increase from 4.1°C in 2100 to 3.75°C. This will cost $18 trillion, but deliver climate benefits worth twice that. The popular 2°C target, in contrast, is unrealistic and would leave the world more than $250 trillion worse off. The most effective climate policy is increasing investment in green R&D to make future decarbonization much cheaper. This can deliver $11 of climate benefits for each dollar spent. More effective climate policies can help the world do better. The current climate discourse leads to wasteful climate policies, diverting attention and funds from more effective ways to improve the world”.

    • Chris Warren says:

      Lomborg has lost his marbles – he claims we can build dikes to protect 90% of coastal flood plain population “no matter the amount of sea level rise”.

      This the sort of stupid stuff denialists peddle. Where would you place a seawall over 200 feet high to protect capital cities except Canberra?

      • Boambee John says:

        Chrissy babbles again.

        “This the sort of stupid stuff denialists peddle. Where would you place a seawall over 200 feet high to protect capital cities except Canberra?”

        This the sort of stupid stuff alarmists peddle. Where would you need a seawall over 200 feet high to protect capital cities except Canberra? If all of the ice in the world melted (over several thousands of years), would the sea level rise 200 feet?

        What is the IPCC (modelled) estimate of sea level rise this century? 40cms? 50 cms?

        Pure alarmism on steroidsm

        • Neville says:

          Good point BJ and the study he linked to yesterday showed SLR of about 4 inches or 100 mm by 2100, yet silly D1 didn’t bother to read EVEN the first sentence of the link he posted.
          The poor donkey is a pathetic joke and we’ll learn zip from these stu-pid fools. See my reply below.

      • Neville says:

        I know Lomborg and his expert team haven’t lost their marbles because he uses proper data and evidence after accounting for likely outcomes.
        And his team actually scores every issue by using proper cost benefit analysis before they decide on the best way to fix the likely problem.
        Therefore he knows that S&W are too dilute and intermittent to ever be the answer to run a modern economy and then we have the environmental problems of these dirty disasters, plus their replacement every 20 years as well.
        But your 200 foot example just proves that you are totally clueless and irrelevant and not worth any serious engagement at all.

        • ... says:

          Poor old Nev ….

          Just how wrong can you be – “But your 200 foot example just proves that you are totally clueless and irrelevant and not worth any serious engagement at all.”

          You have demonstrated for all that YOU are “are totally clueless and irrelevant and not worth any serious engagement at all”.

          If you do not understand why ice melts and what happens when all ice melts – then you have no reason to be even trying to comment on climate issues.

          You are hoisted by your own petard and now just swing in the breeze.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      The problem is that the signal is not as clear as the alarmists claim.

      Speaking of which, have you yet managed in the vast range of material produced by all of the IPCC, BoM, scientific societies throughout the western world just one example of an unprecedented climate event? Or are so blinded by your ideology that you can’t be bothered doing basic research?

      • Stu says:

        Mate, many natural events over time exhibit major extremes. The issue of climate events is not about “unprecedented events” but rather the increasing incidence of extreme events over time. As an example look at the rising trend (for many places) of peak maximum temperatures and also rising minima over many decades. The November figures are a case in point. Another is the high incidence of tropical storm events last season in the Atlantic. Was it unprecedented? Who knows? Was it indicative of a rising incidence? Yes say the scientists. Perhaps the most glaring is the now regular decrease in Arctic summer sea ice, matched this year by an unusual (not necessarily unprecedented) slow refreezing coupled with unusually high temperatures in Alaska and Northern Canada. Do some research. I fear you still have a problem differentiating climate and weather.

        • spangled drongo says:

          Another pathetic, fact-and-evidence-free effort from stu.

          “As an example look at the rising trend (for many places) of peak maximum temperatures and also rising minima over many decades.”

          Name just one of them that has not happened before due to natural climate variability, stueyluv.

          Just one.

          • Stu says:

            Jesus you are obstinately thick. Any reasonable person would see your statement as pathetic. I wrote about rising trends, which even you should see says nothing about natural climate variability in or out. And just how far back do you want to go with your natural variability and what rates of change do you accede to for those variations and how do they compare with current trends.

            Because the earth was once a giant snowball, everything is in bounds of normal, is what you are saying yes. If you had any credibility as a climate scientist I might listen to you, but you have none. Neither do I but I am not the one flying in the face of the overwhelming published science and scientific opinion, you are. All you can do is scour the blog pages of fringe players with unknown motivation for narrow angles on obscure topics while ignoring the aggregation of evidence from observations and research and yes, even models. You don’t seem capable of finding actual science directly, only the scraps that fall from bit players with questionable credentials.
            But never mind the world moves on. NZ made major announcements today, USA will follow come January and Australia will belatedly follow (most states are already on board). As I said previously whether the science is right or wrong, you have lost the argument, except in this weird echo chamber of course, so get over it. And meantime hang onto your old ICE clunker of a vehicle or you might have to drive an EV.

          • spangled drongo says:

            The climate religious blitherer blithers again:

            “Because the earth was once a giant snowball, everything is in bounds of normal, is what you are saying yes.”

            I’m saying nothing of the sort.

            In very recent history we have enjoyed warmth greater than anything we now experience.

            And there is very definite measurable EVIDENCE to prove it.

            And you have been given that evidence on numerous occasions.

            And with more evidence just outside your window like the greatest ocean in the world not having risen for over a century should also calm your urge to bed-wet all over this blog.

            Grow up, for goodness sake. You are getting stu-pider by the day.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          Lots of hand waving, no actual data.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Poor ‘ol Nev and Bomb ….

    A pure display of ignorance – calling alarmism when the evidence is from the United States government that:

    “There is still some uncertainty about the full volume of glaciers and ice caps on Earth, but if all of them were to melt, global sea level would rise approximately 70 meters (approximately 230 feet), flooding every coastal city on the planet.” FACT.

    This just demonstrates they have no idea what they are talking about and have no capacity to discuss evidence?

    Normal IQ would enable someone to find out such simple facts through easy internet searches. But our two denialist dullards could not even do this.

    Two dimwits making a noise in their own private echo chamber of climate ignorance.

    • spangled drongo says:

      You find that practicing your enuresis just before bedtime is the best way to get results, hey blith?

      How pathetic!

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      You forgot to put a time frame on the melting of all that ice.

      5 years? 500 years? 1000 years? 5000 years?

      Alarmism on steroids, simple catastrophe porn.

      PS, not a FACT, the output of yet another model based on uncertain data. Is this lot any better than the Canadian guesstimates about their glaciers?

    • Stu says:

      Chris, give up. Just remember these turkeys also believe there was a giant conspiracy to corrupt the US election and Donald was robbed. The only fraud going on over there is Trump ripping off his donors to amass his staggering slush fund which he is free to use however he pleases, including more hush money and golf clubs. Even his AG has finally broken ranks and says the election was fine. Some of them deny being followers of Sky but that seems unlikely as they fit the mould perfectly on every criteria. So no use arguing, you can never win. In fact arguing only reinforces adherence and blind faith in bizarre ideas and pseudo science.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        “Some of them deny being followers of Sky but that seems unlikely as they fit the mould perfectly on every criteria.”

        Weren’t you taught not to stereotype people, particularly those you have never met? Off to re-education camp for you!

  • Chris Warren says:

    So the stumblebum Bombee can only launch slander.

    Anyone can see the timeline by simple internet searches and basing themselves on an appropriate scenario. Bombee will not know how to do this.

    The US Government, and most school boys, knows more than this twit.

    • Boambee John says:

      Ah Chrissy.

      It is easy to tell when you are out of your comfort zone. You resort to abuse, ranting about “slander” and “lies”. Perhaps you need lessons in polite public discourse?

    • Stu says:

      Chris, notice that he did not deny being full on with the Trump lies.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        Oh, that is a killer argument! I am cut to the quick!

        It is difficult to decide which of you and Chris has the more pathetic childish “insults”. Try to at least reach the adolescent level.

        • Stu says:

          So you admit to being all in with the Trump lies and denial, pathetic.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Perhaps you might point to that admission?

            Or is it from the same fevered parts of what passes for your brain that also panics at the suggestion that there might possibly, under certain circumstances, if computer models could be relied on, be 15 metres of sea level rise in around 500 years time?

            You have not yet denied that you are a racist (see, more than one can play this Stu-pid game).

  • Chris Warren says:

    These fools who think they can build walls to protect coastal cities need to plan on a 3m to 5m wall by 2200 and 15 metre wall by 2500 – according to science if present trends continue.

    That is why we can just kick denialists into the gutter where they belong.

    • Boambee John says:

      Silly Chrissy

      “according to science if present trends continue.”

      Now there is a statement of confident science, but with lots of ways out if it isn’t true.

      Chrissy is talking about almost 500 years into the future, all based on GIGO computer models. If he believes that this is a basis for planning the future, he is more deluded than even I thought!

      This is why we can just kick alarmists into the gutter where they belong.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        Did you address your letter of abnegation to your great to the 40th power grandchildren, who might (or might not) be threatened with inundatiin in 500 years time because Liddell was not closed last year?

        Are you frightened by these models?

  • spangled drongo says:

    The donkey blitherers, 1&2, are competing to see who can wet more bed sheets than the other.

    I’m sure it’s a fun game but it is a little childish and boring.

    Just because Greta does it….

    Grow up, the pair of you and try some facts and evidence along the way.

  • Boambee John says:

    I wonder could Chrissy look into his Chris-tal balls and give us a forecast for the weather in 1000 years. I want to book a game of golf.

  • Neville says:

    Amazing that the D1 donkey still has the hide to remain here after his delusional nonsense a couple of days ago.
    He some how turned 100mm SLR into 200 feet by 2100 and only because he didn’t even read the first sentence of HIS LINK. I had to do that for him, but he STILL doesn’t exhibit any shame or embarrassment at all?
    You should read the recent Pacific island’s SL link above and you just might start to wake up, although I’ll believe it when I see it.

    BTW here’s Bolt’s interview with Daniel Fitzhenry the expert whose job it is to calibrate the correct SLs and SLR at Fort Denison, month by month and year by year. He actually says that there’s a trend of about 30 cm DROP between the recent trend and to the end of the century. But he doesn’t recommend this forecast and thinks that it is more likely that SLs will go up and down by about 15 cm ( 6 inches) for the foreseeable future. Who knows?

    But their GIGO modeling is the story of fairy tales and 200 feet is just a stu-pid donkey’s wet dream.

    • spangled drongo says:

      Thanks Neville.

      One of the many things I have done for much of my life is build sea front infrastructure such as jetties, sea walls, boat slips, ramps etc as well as building boats that require this infrastructure. I have also been considerably involved with people who run boat slips and marinas whose business would improve from sea level rise as those slips would be able to handle bigger vessels. These slip operators have been forced to buy cranes with slings to handle these bigger boats that sea level rise would have done for them for nothing.

      If there had been any sea level rise in recent years they would not have spent large amounts on this unnecessary machinery.

      Sea levels are going nowhere and have been that way all my life.

      • Neville says:

        Thanks SD , I’m sure you’re correct and I’m now convinced this entire climate crisis or CAGW is just a sick game by our donkeys and other LW con merchants to further some idiotic political agenda here and around the world.
        It certainly doesn’t follow proper scientific data or evidence and yet plenty of fools continue to fall for their delusional nonsense and get very hostile when you point out the problems.
        And I suppose if you follow the money it also helps to solve a lot more of the puzzle.

    • Boambee John says:

      Neville

      Worse than that, he has acknowledged that even using the (acknowledged by NASA) usless models, it will be almost 500 years before sufficient ice melts to raise sea levels by 15 metres.

      Given that the original discussion was about sea ice, I wonder is he adding that in to the sea level rise?

  • Neville says:

    Here’s a part of Lomborg’s abstract above and he uses proper references for everything in this PEER REVIEWED study. NOTE IPCC etc.
    “Scenarios set out under the UN Climate Panel (IPCC) show human welfare will likely increase to 450% of today’s welfare over the 21st century. Climate damages will reduce this welfare increase to 434%. Arguments for devastation typically claim that extreme weather (like droughts, floods, wildfires, and hurricanes) is already worsening because of climate change. This is mostly misleading and inconsistent with the IPCC literature. For instance, the IPCC finds no trend for global hurricane frequency and has low confidence in attribution of changes to human activity, while the US has not seen an increase in landfalling hurricanes since 1900. Global death risk from extreme weather has declined 99% over 100 years and global costs have declined 26% over the last 28 years. Arguments for devastation typically ignore adaptation, which will reduce vulnerability dramatically. While climate research suggests that fewer but stronger future hurricanes will increase damages, this effect will be countered by richer and more resilient societies. Global cost of hurricanes will likely decline from 0.04% of GDP today to 0.02% in 2100”.
    I know this is difficult for our donkeys to understand but we can only live in hope. OH and try and get further than the first sentence this time, if you even understand what that means?

  • Neville says:

    Here’s a second part of the long Lomborg abstract and even a cursory glance should start to wake up our clueless donkeys. Who knows?

    “Climate-economic research shows that the total cost from untreated climate change is negative but moderate, likely equivalent to a 3.6% reduction in total GDP. Climate policies also have costs that often vastly outweigh their climate benefits. The Paris Agreement, if fully implemented, will cost $819–$1,890 billion per year in 2030, yet will reduce emissions by just 1% of what is needed to limit average global temperature rise to 1.5°C. Each dollar spent on Paris will likely produce climate benefits worth 11¢. Long-term impacts of climate policy can cost even more”.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s the CSIRO Cape Grim data updated to Oct 2020 and it shows an increase in co2 levels of 2.2 ppm on Oct 2019. Starting to think yet?

    https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/Latest-greenhouse-gas-data

    • Stu says:

      Spit it out, what point are you trying to make posting this piece of data? Very curious.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        No point telling you, you have already admitted that understanding science is beyond your limited intellect.

        • Stu says:

          That is a totally ridiculous response but sadly not unexpected. Would you like to try again and gain a little credibility?

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            I thought I might indulge in a little Stu-style stereotyping.

            Do you deny absolutely that there was any vote fraud in the recent US presidential. Your position on climate change suggests strongly that you do.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu has still not denied that there was any vote fraud in the recent US presidential election.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s the latest Mauna Loa data from NOAA. From Oct ’19 to Oct 2020 the increase for last 12 months is 2.76 ppm or about 0.56 ppm higher than Cape Grim.

    https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

    • Stu says:

      Same question again. What point are you making? Referring to fuck knuckle BJ above, you have referred to a statistic, which on its own is not science. What is your point?

      • Boambee John says:

        I thought that the point would be quite clear to one having your deep understanding of the mechanism of climate change.

        • Stu says:

          Oh, so you agree climate change is driven by burning fossil fuels which increase the CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Great, welcome to reality.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Still unable to recognise sarcasm? I guess that goes with the po-faced political correctness.

          • Stu says:

            Don’t you realise sarcasm can be self defeating when used improperly? You fail.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            So you accept that you do not “deep understanding of the mechanism of climate change.”

            Thank you for the confirmation.

    • Chris Warren says:

      Why is Neville using real data from an authoritative source?

      The point that needs to be made is that the rate of growth is increasing. This is a threat.

      https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/gl_gr.html

      • Boambee John says:

        He routinely presents data from those two sources. Unfortunately, you are so blinded by your obsession with “denialists” that you usually seem not to read it.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Why are our denialists denying over 200 feet of prospective sea level rise?

    • spangled drongo says:

      Because blith, under the usual and expected climate pattern there will be a 400 feet FALL long before that happens.

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      Your “source” suggested that there might be 15 metres (around 50 feet) of rise in about 500 years. At that rate, it will take up to 2000 years to get that 200 feet of rise, if (big if) the output of the model actually represents the future.

      Do you seriously expect any rational person to worry about possible events in two millenia? Why are you getting hysterical about this?

      A more reasonable question would be why do alarmists make outlandish assertions about a future beyond our imagining.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Poor ‘ol Neville – posts a Andrew Bolt video in his ignorance.

    The BOM shows an increasing sea level for Fort Denison approx 10 cm per century.

    http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLI.png

    So poor ‘ol Nev – kicked to the gutter yet again, still denying 200 feet of sea level rise is possible if present trends continue.

    • Boambee John says:

      Silly Chrissy!

      ” if present trends continue.”

      Even by alarmists’ hysterical standards, that is a bloody big “if”!

      Chrissy expects that a previously dynamic climate will now stabilise on a straight line trend for the next 2000 years.

      Or perhaps he is trying to whip up a scare campaign for short term purposes?

  • spangled drongo says:

    Please spare us a miniscule 20 years of data, blith.

    And the official observation of sea levels is Mean Sea Level and MSL for that same Fort Denison site is precisely what Neville gave you. The latest numbers show a FALL of over 7 inches during its lifetime:

    http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLD.shtml

    If you had the courage, interest and intelligence to do your own observing you would see it for yourself.

    • Neville says:

      SD I’ve given him the data/ link to the man that knows more about Fort Denison SLs over the last 116 years and there’s no SLR at all. It’s Daniel Fitzhenry’s job to check that data every month, every year.
      And his 200 ft fantasy is just a loony on steroids and I’ve also shown that if every country followed Paris to the letter it wouldn’t make a jot of difference at all.
      The RS & NAS know it, Zickfeld knows it, Lomborg Knows it and even the LW Conversation agrees with them.
      This donkey is the most extraordinary cherry picker on this blog and doesn’t even know enough to check the simplest sentence before he yaps.
      BTW it looks like the clueless NZ pm has jumped into bed with the most fanatical religious loonies on the planet. And don’t forget that NZ emits an incredible 0.1% of global co2 emissions, SARC. And yet this moron has just declared a climate emergency.

      https://joannenova.com.au/2020/12/new-zealand-pm-has-just-given-permission-for-climate-zealots-to-break-laws-its-an-emergency/

      • Stu says:

        “Oh it is ok Jimmy, we are only 0.1% of the cars on the road, no one will notice if we drive on the other side to all the rest, I am sure there is no need for us to comply with the rule, they will all drive round us and everything will be fine”

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          Many a true word spoken in (failed) sarcasm.

          Much of the rest of the world is indeed driving around us, building hundreds of new coal fired power stations. They are quite happy to see the (largely white) west commit economic suicide, but have no intention of following us.

          You’re not very bright, are you?

        • Stu says:

          Pathetic

          • Boambee John says:

            Sad, low energy.

            Do you deny the reality of what I posted? Are you a reality denialist?

    • Boambee John says:

      SD

      Just standard alarmist cherry picking of selected data points. Much like the BoM starting their temperature trend line from 1910, to omit the hot temperature of the Federation Drought.

  • Neville says:

    BTW I have to remind D1 that just 4K ago our east coast had 1.5 metre higher SLs than today.
    And that’s from their ABC Catalyst program I’ve linked to a number of times.
    Oh and in the much warmer Eemian inter glacial , SLs were many metres higher than today. And co2 then was about 280 ppm 130K to 115K ago.

  • Chris Warren says:

    The latest satellite data demonstrates strong warming of the global lower atmosphere at a rate of 1.4° C per century. The South Pole is also warming at a rate of 0.2 ° C per century. These are all increases compared to the trends from August 2018. Then the lower atmosphere was warming at 1.3° C and the South Pole was stable at 0.00° C.

    So what should we do about this given we still have a few denialists lurking about the place? This warming will not stop unless atmospheric GHGs are reduced.

    Australia is particularly at risk given the August AUST trend was 0.18 and is now 0.19. In a couple of years – it will be 2.0 ° C per century and then higher.

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      “This warming will not stop unless atmospheric GHGs are reduced.”

      Your specific proposals, based on your skills as a climate scientist, to achieve this objective?

      “.given the August AUST trend was 0.18 and is now 0.19. In a couple of years – it will be 2.0 ° C per century and then higher.”

      Does the base for this trend line include the temperatures at the time of the Federation Drought?

  • Chris Warren says:

    If anyone is interested in the tide gauge data for Australia – this is a good resource:

    http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLD.shtml This plots I posted are linked there.

    However land also heats up, so this expansion adjusts the measuring rods (depending on what they are constructed from). This is why satellite data is more representative of true trends.

  • Neville says:

    So we’re back to where we started years ago. So AGAIN tell us what to do and what difference it would make in 50 years, in 100 years and in 500 years or even thousands of years?
    I’ve given you all the data since 1988 and the source is the so called developing countries, NOT the OECD countries. When will you wake up?
    Or haven’t you noticed YET.

  • Neville says:

    BTW you’re NOT reading your links AGAIN. GEEEEEZZZZ will you ever wake up?
    That link is Fort Denison and the 1914 level was 1.111 and the latest level is 0.929 or a DROP of 0.182 in MSL over the last 106 years.
    SD has been showing you this data for a year and yet you still HAVEN’T GOT A CLUE?
    Here’s the monthly means since 1914 and 2020 is now below MSL and monthly MSLs since 1914. SEE BELOW.

    Statistics Top

    Mean sea level = 0.936 (Average monthly means = 0.937)

    Maximum recorded level of 2.400 metres at 1300 hours 25/05/1974
    Minimum recorded level of -0.190 metres at 1700 hours 19/08/1982
    Standard deviation of the observations = 0.4191 metres
    Skewness = 0.1421

    • spangled drongo says:

      |Thanks Neville.

    • Chris Warren says:

      More incompetent rubbish from neville.

      His figure of 1.111 was only for the month of May and every other 1914 month was lower.

      1.111 does not represent 1914.

      If you take October 1914 you get a different figure – 0.815

      This is at least 10 cm lower than October 2020.

      So poor ‘ol neville has embarrassed himself yet again.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Dopey blith sez; “If anyone is interested in the tide gauge data for Australia – this is a good resource”:

    And then goes on to link us to the site we have been giving him for yonks.

    Very goooood, blith. Very sloooow, but getting there.

    Now, next step is to learn how to read it by checking the first MSL data [1.111m, May 1914]….

    And then the last MSL data [ 0.929 m, Oct 2020]….

    And you’ll see it’s DOWN 182 mm….

    And then even you might be able to work out that the biggest piece of ocean in the world is going nowhere….

    And maybe wake up.

    BJ and Neville, maybe you could please pass on this message for our blith as he also chooses to deny reality by reckoning I don’t exist.

  • Neville says:

    Hey D1 SD would also like to help you out.

    “spangled drongo
    December 4, 2020 at 9:08 am
    “Dopey blith sez; “If anyone is interested in the tide gauge data for Australia – this is a good resource”:

    “And then goes on to link us to the site we have been giving him for yonks.

    Very goooood, blith. Very sloooow, but getting there.

    Now, next step is to learn how to read it by checking the first MSL data [1.111m, May 1914]….

    And then the last MSL data [ 0.929 m, Oct 2020]….

    And you’ll see it’s DOWN 182 mm….

    And then even you might be able to work out that the biggest piece of ocean in the world is going nowhere….

    And maybe wake up.

    BJ and Neville, maybe you could please pass on this message for our blith as he also chooses to deny reality by reckoning I don’t exist”.

  • Chris Warren says:

    Drongo still around?

    I only see its droppings when I use a library computer because I cannot run my scripts there.

    But it looks like Drongo has not looked at the trend (which I repeat) nor realised that 1914 data is incomplete.

    http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70000/IDO70000_60370_SLI.png

    If you download the data and work with 12 monthly averages you find a trend of around 10 mm per century, but with some acceleration towards the end of the series.

    All this is visible in the image.

    This is why all Drongo posts are binned before Don’s blog is viewed.

    Unfortunately any reply or comment made UNDER a Drongo comment is also lost and not seen.

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      “I only see its droppings when I use a library computer because I cannot run my scripts there.”

      Always good to see the operations of an open, enquiring, scientific (???) mind.

      Good to see you correct your trend to 10 cm per century. Even accepting the initial rate of 10 cm/century, how much acceleration is needed to get a sea level rise of 60 metres in 20 centuries?

  • Chris Warren says:

    “around 10 mm per century,” => around 10 cm per century,

  • Chris Warren says:

    Fort Denison displays a remarkable acceleration in sea level rise going by extracting the most recent 50 years of data – 1971 to 2020.

    This rate is over 13 cm per century.

    The data (12 monthly averages) is:

    0.922
    0.945
    0.926
    0.959
    0.986
    0.968
    0.994
    0.944
    0.951
    0.932
    0.949
    0.947
    0.911
    0.926
    0.956
    0.971
    0.937
    0.924
    0.981
    0.989
    1.001
    0.938
    0.95
    0.938
    0.924
    0.938
    0.929
    0.916
    0.973
    0.953
    0.992
    1.012
    0.943
    0.964
    0.948
    0.991
    0.934
    0.984
    0.961
    0.971
    1.006
    1.003
    0.995
    1.018
    1.024
    0.989
    1.062
    1.016
    0.98
    1.011

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      Cherry picking start and end dates can do tbat for you.

      • Chris Warren says:

        50 years of continuous data is NOT cherry picking.

        This is the cry of a depressed denialist.

        • Boambee John says:

          Chrissy

          Deciding to ignore the data from 1914 to 1970 in order to find a more “favourable” trend line is cherry picking.

          This is the act of a desperate alarmist.

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      Some science from your most loyal collaborator, SD.

      “Sea Levels Are Barely Rising — And The Rise Is ‘Not Anthropogenic In Origin’

      Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner, a renowned sea-level expert who has authored over 200 peer-reviewed scientific publications during his career, has recently confirmed there has been a lack of climate-related sea level rise in areas of the world where disastrous climate-related sea level rise has been assumed to already be occurring: the Maldives and along the coasts of Bangladesh. Severe coastal erosion can explain the relative sea level changes in these regions. In fact, Mörner reports that the Indian Ocean as a whole has been “virtually stable over the last 40-50 years.”

      Mörner, 2016
      “Coastal erosion is caused by many different processes like changes in prevailing wind direction, coastal currents, re-establishment of a new equilibrium profile, sea level rise, sea level fall, exceptional storms, hurricanes/cyclones, and tsunami events. These coastal factors are reviewed with special attention to effects due to changes in sea level. In the Indian Ocean, sea level seems to have remained virtually stable over the last 40-50 years. Coastal erosion in the Maldives was caused by a short lowering in sea level in the 1970s. In Bangladesh, repeated disastrous cyclone events cause severe coastal erosion, which hence has nothing to do with any proposed sea level rise. Places like Tuvalu, Kiribati and Vanuatu – all notorious for an inferred sea level rise – have tide gauges which show no on-going sea level rise. Erosion is by no means a sign of sea level rise. Coastal erosion occurs in uplifting regions as well as in subsiding regions, or virtually stable areas. Coastal morphology provides excellent insights to the stability.”

      • Chris Warren says:

        I am not going to respond to such attempts at attention seeking by drongo via you.

        If the topic introduced by neville’s Bolt video was Fort Denison, then it is clear that sea levels are rising and the last 50 years show a trend greater than previously .

        So in future, DO NOT COPY PASTE droppings from drongo. Denialists always switch attention when they have been exposed.

        “In 2019, global mean sea level was 3.4 inches (87.61 mm centimeters) above the 1993 average…”

        This is 8.7 cm in 25 years or 34 cm per century. Different regions of the earth have different rates.

        https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/climate-change-global-sea-level

        You do not understand science by denying it.

        • Boambee John says:

          Chrissy

          “Different regions of the earth have different rates.”

          So, perhaps there is no “global” issue, just a range of regional issues, with different causes?

      • spangled drongo says:

        Thanks BJ. Luv the arrogant response.

  • spangled drongo says:

    You could pass this on to our blith to help him with his enuresis.

    Scientific paper re the longest term Pacific tide gauges.

    SLR and acceleration both negative:

    Conclusion

    The Pacific Atolls are not drowning because the sea level is rising much less than what was once thought. By considering the average of the 29 long-term-trend (LTT) tide gauges of Japan, Oceania and West Coast of North America, both the relative rate of rise and acceleration are negative, ?0.02139 mm yr?1 and ?0.00007 mm yr?2, respectively. Since the start of the 1900s, the sea levels of the Pacific have been remarkably stable, rising or falling mostly because of subsidence. The evidence proposed by Duvat (2018) is supported by the long-term tide gauge indication.

    This supports my own observations. The earliest sea front infrastructure that I have been involved with [1946] was built to AHD 100 [King tide height] and today the king tides are at least 6 inches lower.

  • spangled drongo says:

    I’ll just try that again. Those minus and hyphen signs came out as question marks in the cut and paste. See what happens this time:

    Conclusion

    The Pacific Atolls are not drowning because the sea level is rising much less than what was once thought. By considering the average of the 29 long-term-trend (LTT) tide gauges of Japan, Oceania and West Coast of North America, both the relative rate of rise and acceleration are negative, ?0.02139 mm yr?1 and ?0.00007 mm yr?2, respectively. Since the start of the 1900s, the sea levels of the Pacific have been remarkably stable, rising or falling mostly because of subsidence. The evidence proposed by Duvat (2018) is supported by the long-term tide gauge indication.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Did it again.

    Any’ow, those four question marks are [correctly]; minus sign, hyphen, minus sign, hyphen, respectively. I notice this site changes many similar signs.

  • spangled drongo says:

    And it’s not just the Pacific:

    Scientists: Sea Levels Are Barely Rising — And The Rise Is ‘Not Anthropogenic In Origin’

    Dr. Nils-Axel Mörner, a renowned sea-level expert who has authored over 200 peer-reviewed scientific publications during his career, has recently confirmed there has been a lack of climate-related sea level rise in areas of the world where disastrous climate-related sea level rise has been assumed to already be occurring: the Maldives and along the coasts of Bangladesh. Severe coastal erosion can explain the relative sea level changes in these regions. In fact, Mörner reports that the Indian Ocean as a whole has been “virtually stable over the last 40-50 years.”

    Mörner, 2016
    “Coastal erosion is caused by many different processes like changes in prevailing wind direction, coastal currents, re-establishment of a new equilibrium profile, sea level rise, sea level fall, exceptional storms, hurricanes/cyclones, and tsunami events. These coastal factors are reviewed with special attention to effects due to changes in sea level. In the Indian Ocean, sea level seems to have remained virtually stable over the last 40-50 years. Coastal erosion in the Maldives was caused by a short lowering in sea level in the 1970s. In Bangladesh, repeated disastrous cyclone events cause severe coastal erosion, which hence has nothing to do with any proposed sea level rise. Places like Tuvalu, Kiribati and Vanuatu – all notorious for an inferred sea level rise – have tide gauges which show no on-going sea level rise. Erosion is by no means a sign of sea level rise. Coastal erosion occurs in uplifting regions as well as in subsiding regions, or virtually stable areas. Coastal morphology provides excellent insights to the stability.”

  • spangled drongo says:

    Our blith sez; “You do not understand science by denying it.”

    That describes him perfectly and yet he denies he denies it.

    Oh, dear!

    This might help your denial, blith:

    https://content.sciendo.com/configurable/contentpage/journals$002fquageo$002f38$002f1$002farticle-p179.xml?tab_body=fullHtml-78567#d53006085e581

  • Stu says:

    Chris you have to realise that these guys now give every appearance of operating under Poe’s law. That is, they are not really climate deniers, they just publish all that crap for fun and to cause confusion. They really accept that AGW is real and something must be done. (Poe’s law operating here rather than Chatham house rules eh!

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      Dream on! You live in a fantasy world of your own mental creation.

      Pity your mental world does not include mind reading, you might seem somewhat less of a fool.

      • Boambee John says:

        Does Stu live in aj Edgar Allan Poe world? A world of horror and mystery, lying awake at night in fear of 200 feet of sea level rise over 2000 years?

        Cheer up Stu, Poe had the answer. Nevermore.

        • Stu says:

          Wake up, I was nor referring to JE Poe, but of course you knew that and were just being sarcastic, right?

          • Boambee John says:

            At last. Signs of intellect in Planet Stu! Or did he have to Google the “other” Poe?

          • Boambee John says:

            Pe, but not much intellect. The initials of Edgar Allan Poe are not JE!

          • Boambee John says:

            Did Stu, a convinced left wing “progressive”, see the name Edgar, and immediately think of J Edgar Hoover? That would explain the initials JE.

            Of course, Hoover is one of many hate figures to “progressives”, because of his dirt files. But these days, “progressives” praise the use of the arms of the state (FBI, IRS, CIA, FISA Court) to gather dirt on their enemies. Hypocrites!

  • spangled drongo says:

    All you have to do is stick to the real world, stueyluv.

    Y’know, facts, evidence, obs etc.

    Try it just once.

    It’ll blow your tiny mind.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Here’s some more real world you can tell your mate blith about, stueyluv:

    Parker and Ollier, 2016
    “Tide gauges provide the most reliable measurements, and best data to assess the rate of change. We show as the naïve averaging of all the tide gauges included in the PSMSL surveys show “relative” rates of rise about +1.04 mm/year (570 tide gauges of any length). If we consider only 100 tide gauges with more than 80 years of recording the rise is only +0.25 mm/year. This naïve averaging has been stable and shows that the sea levels are slowly rising but not accelerating. … We conclude that if the sea levels are only oscillating about constant trends everywhere as suggested by the tide gauges, then the effects of climate change are negligible, and the local patterns may be used for local coastal planning without any need of purely speculative global trends based on emission scenarios.”

    It’ll help to cure the enuresis in both of you.

  • Boambee John says:

    Chrissy and Stu

    Actually, this sea level rise is a diversion from the possible future.

    This was forecast by Jonathan Swift in Gulliver’s Travels. Like Laputa, the cities of the future will be built on anti-gravity platforms. They will look down from above, free from concerns about sea levels.

    We have hundreds, nay, thousands, of years to develop this technology. Relax, sit back, and smell the roses.

  • Boambee John says:

    Earlier Stu described my comment that “Much of the the rest of the world is indeed driving around us, building hundreds of new coal fired power stations. They are quite happy to see the (largely white) west commit economic suicide, but have no intention of following us.

    You’re not very bright, are you?”

    As “Pathetic”.

    It seems that CNN is also pathetic.

    “We’re at a turning point on climate change. But most countries are still choosing fossil fuels over clean energy, report says

    By Helen Regan, CNN
    Updated 1401 GMT (2201 HKT) December 2, 2020

    (CNN)Governments of the world are at a “critical juncture” for shaping the climate’s future but are on course to produce too many fossil fuels in the decade ahead, a new report has found.

    To limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit) — which scientists say would avoid the most catastrophic impacts of climate change — countries need to wind down their fossil fuel production by 6% every year between now and 2030, according to the 2020 Production Gap report.

    Instead, countries are on track to produce an increase of 2% per year.

    And as governments pour money into their economies in a bid to recover from the coronavirus pandemic, they risk locking the world into a climate disaster by investing more heavily in fossil fuel industries — such as power, aviation, and car manufacturing, according to the new analysis from the Stockholm Environment Institute, International Institute for Sustainable Development (IISD), Overseas Development Institute (ODI), E3G and the UN Environment Programme.

    “We find ourselves at a critical juncture at this time. While global fossil fuel production will dip sharply this year, government action and recovery measures are poised to shape our climate future,” said Ploy Pattanun Achakulwisut, SEI scientist and co-author of the report.

    “They could either return to pre-Covid production levels that lock-in severe climate disruption, or they could set the stage for a managed wind down of fossil fuel production.”

  • spangled drongo says:

    If only blith and stu had better memories it might cure their enuresis.

    Remember, back in 2008 Obama said that people should vote for him if they wanted to stop the ocean rising. He got elected, and it didn’t rise.

    Also, the Prime Minister of Tuvalu, who has probably guessed by now that the sea isn’t going to rise by so much as an inch; but he still wants, for his supposedly threatened atoll, a share of the free cash, and especially because the question has changed. It used to be: how will we cope when the disaster comes? The question now is: how will we cope if it does not?

  • Neville says:

    Here’s the latest report from NASA where they ask the best scientists what they think will happen to SLR over the next 100 years etc.
    This is ongoing but there doesn’t seem to be much to panic about? Certainly no metres of SLR that I can find.
    I think Dr Humlum is correct when he finds that there will be about 1 to 1.5 mm/year or about another 4 to 6 inches by 2120.

    https://climate.nasa.gov/news/3021/emissions-could-add-15-inches-to-sea-level-by-2100-nasa-led-study-finds/

    • Chris Warren says:

      Idiot – climate change does not end in 100 years.

      • Boambee John says:

        Chrissy

        Indeed it does not. The climate has been changing for millenia, and will continue to change in the future.

        The real issue is whether it is sensible to tie our future actions to the “predictions” of computer models of dubious reliability. A more sensible course would be to retain flexibility to meet a range of possible futures.

        This, however, is anathema to alarmists who have tied their personal reputation to a specific outcome that is far from guaranteed.

  • spangled drongo says:

    More brilliance from Brenchley. I have three sons with various medical degrees and I feel it is my duty to advise them of these displays of the ignorance of experts:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/05/lancing-the-lancets-global-warming-pustule/

    • Boambee John says:

      SD

      I notice that Monckton mentions the beneficial influence of CO2 on crop growth. Whenever that is mentioned, Stu starts waving his hands and mumbling about improved varieties (he presumably favours GM varieties), better machinery and more (artificial) fertiliser.

      Strangely, he seems to assume that warmer growing seasons and more of the natural fertiliser CO2 have no, or only minimal effect. It seems that Stu denies that natural benefits from warmth and CO2 can have any measurable effect. Just another climate denialist?

      • spangled drongo says:

        Yes BJ, it’s unfathomable how people can be as obtuse as stu and blith.

        Their propensity for pustulent propaganda and then brain-washing the kiddies with it all is what the lefty world is running on these days.

        And they are in complete denial as to how it’s going to come back to bite ’em.

        • Stu says:

          Yes, have it your way as no logic will sway you, Chris and are completely wrong, but you and your cult are losing (have lost) the argument on a developed country government basis. You had better bleat louder or find a better forum.

          BTW there is a strong correlation between climate denial and US election fraud fantasy. I think Peter Fitz summed it up well when he wrote about the US situation “All the sad, lonely conspiracy nutters world-wide, nurturing each other in the dark corners of the web, have got it right. And all the judges, governors, legal officials on the ground, actually right there, have got it wrong. Just amazing.” The Trump followers are now 1/46 in the courts and counting.

          And all this just like climate change

          • Boambee John says:

            Good old Stu, back to science by opinion poll. Reality will prevail, particularly when the power goes off on a regular basis.

            So, sorry, Stu, that is not the scientific method. More like Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.

            PS, to borrow some of your words, but amended for accuracy, “there is a strong correlation between climate alarmism and US election fraud denialism.”

            Do you deny absolutely that there was any electoral fraud at all in the recent US presidential election?

          • spangled drongo says:

            “You had better bleat louder or find a better forum.”

            Stu thinks because his “science by consensus” lot are winning the bleating contest that makes them automatically right.

            No wonder he always has a problem with evidence.

          • Stu says:

            As totally usual you completely miss the point, it says something about your intellect. What I wrote was not about the science, was it? I gave in, said you are correct but pointed out that the key decision makers and bodies have moved on against your view. Nothing about opinion polls, merely government policy and action.

            As for the US fraud, there probably was as usual some minor occurrence, from both sides. Funny thing is the only cases so far found have been Republican voters trying twice or in someone else’s name. Funny that. So to answer your question, no there was no organised, massive fraudulent activity. If you had studied US politics and their structure, as I have for over half a century, you would know that with the very decentralised (non) system they emply, you would know it is basically impossible. Too many people to bribe and shut up etc. Key Republican figures, particularly in Georgia and also nationally have sworn to the accuracy and success of the poll. Oh and the case count is now 1/46 or so. Guiliani and co are not doing too well. Go and read some of the judgements, written mostly by strong Federalist society backed judges (i.e. ‘republican”. Trump is now damaging democracy.

            What do you say?

          • Stu says:

            SD, I did not say I was right (but I do believe I am) but that you have lost the game in terms of world politics and government. Quite different. Clearly you cannot accept that conclusion. Ha.

          • spangled drongo says:

            Stu, are you now saying that you have seen the light?

            That you have just become a rational sceptic?

            And you think current world climate political brainwashing is garbage?

            Or are you just having 2 bob each way?

            Because you know you have been so wrong for so long?

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            As usual, you are unable to comprehend what you read. I referred to Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, a distinctly non-scientific subject.

            What I find interesting is that you no longer even pretend that the debate is about “the” science. You now argue that no matter the validity of “the” science, mass opinion is leading the way to “victory”, and show no interest in having such ignorance challenged.

            I guess that when your grandchildren get stuck with the bill for all the failed and unnecessary mitigation plans, they might be less than impressed with your grovelling letter.

            Sad. Low energy.

          • Boambee John says:

            PS

            “Funny thing is the only cases so far found have been Republican voters trying twice or in someone else’s name.”

            Bridge for sale! You need to broaden your reading (and, no, I still do not visit QANON).

      • spangled drongo says:

        This has started to bite already:

        “China – though it has its own space programme and continues to occupy Tibet by military force – is exempt from Paris on the ground that it is a “developing country”. It is not required to forswear its sins of emission.”

  • Stu says:

    SD, you really do lack any ability for normal comprehension of the written word don’t you? I am saying the argument is slipping, has slipped away from you, whether the science argument is right or wrong. Why can you not grasp that simple point? Not to agree with it but to at least to acknowledge the point of the argument. Or, knock me down with a feather, you really believe your denialist position is ascendant and your cult is moving forward successfully convincing all those recalcitrant scientists and policy makers to double down on coal and oil. Amazing.

    • spangled drongo says:

      Stu, you apparently will never get that it is you that worships consensus cults as opposed to scientific facts, data, evidence and rationality and by stringing you along you are more than happy to shout it from the rooftops and demonstrate your religion to all and sundry.

      Sceptics have been perfectly aware for years that with an ever-increasing left wing MSM awa cli-sci institutions that cannot bear one word of criticism of their cli-sci religion, that they have never had anything like equal debate in so many things.

      This is why you believe that the US Dems carried out a perfectly honest election.

      Denial is your mainstay in life.

  • stu says:

    BJ, please share with us your evidence for fraud in the US election. The Trump forces have so far failed spectacularly to provide any evidence deemed credible by the courts. Perhaps you can amaze us all here and even in the US with your earth shattering proof. Please don’t just refer to claimed “affidavits” of so called witnesses, they have all been rejected up till now. Show us the actual stuff.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      There is interesting security video from an arena being used as a counting centre in Georgia. Track it down.

      • Stu says:

        Which has already been dismissed. Is that the best you can do?

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          Let me put it simply enough that even you might be able to comprehend.

          There is more evidence that there was large scale electoral fraud in 2020 than there was for “Wussian collusion” in 2016. Dismissing sworn affidavits and accepting without question the instant MSM/DNC “dismissal” of the video is much of a muchness with your approach to climate change. Narrow minded and uninquisitive.

          But you carry on, as you will.

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu at 1743 yesterday.

    “I gave in, said you are correct but pointed out that the key decision makers and bodies have moved on against your view.”

    Stu at 1746 yesterday.

    “I did not say I was right (but I do believe I am) but that you have lost the game in terms of world politics and government.”

    Stu seems to believe that once a government takes a decision (even a stu-pid one), then there should be no further discussion. I wonder did he think that at the time of the Vietnam War?

    Or has he just run out of his ever weaker arguments on climate change?

    • Stu says:

      “ Stu seems to believe that once a government takes a decision (even a stu-pid one), then there should be no further discussion. I wonder did he think that at the time of the Vietnam War?”

      Not at all slow learner, what I wrote was “ I am saying the argument is slipping, has slipped away from you, whether the science argument is right or wrong.” And asking you if you believe (clearly you do) that “ you really believe your denialist position is ascendant and your cult is moving forward successfully convincing all those recalcitrant scientists and policy makers to double down on coal and oil.”. Like I said, amazing. So try again, I am not saying “….no further discussion”. I am saying how do you propose to dig out of the deep hole you are in. Perhaps I should get my five year old grand daughter to help with the draughting so it is more at your comprehension level.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        I am not in a hole, those (including you) who choose to follow a wrong headed course of action are the ones in a hole. The sceptical position might not be in the ascendent right now, but reality has a way of prevailing, when all stu-pid courses of action have failed.

        Are you sure that you are not following Poe’s Law?

  • Chris Warren says:

    The source of all the disinformation over Fort Denison, including the graphics – nothing but a stock-standard denialist website.

    Just how low do neville and bomb bee sink.

    https://holoceneclimate.com/sydney-sea-level-rise.html

    • Boambee John says:

      Chrissy

      About as much as the sea level is rising?

      Do you ever find that your perpetual ad hom attacks become boring to you? They certainly do to others, as they are just more cherry picking to avoid finding yourself being challenged intellectually.

      • Chris Warren says:

        cry baby

        • Boambee John says:

          Chrissy

          Oh, I am so cut to the quick. My life is ruined.

          But since you seem to have time on your hands, how about you answer the question I asked you on 4 December.

          “warming will not stop unless atmospheric GHGs are reduced.”

          Your specific proposals, based on your skills as a climate scientist, to achieve this objective?”

          Answering this simple question should be straight forward for a scientist of your abilities.

  • Neville says:

    Geezzz I’ve never seen that website and yet our resident donkey tells more lies to justify his stu-pidity.
    But I will admit that early photo of Fort Denison is interesting and certainly ZIP SLR to be seen over the last 142 years.
    Here’s another photo taken in 1868 and STILL doesn’t look to be any more above SL than today. And only 152 years ago.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=early+photos+fort+denison+nsw&oq=early+photos+fort+denison+nsw&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.29607j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    • spangled drongo says:

      Neville and BJ,

      Can you believe our dopey donkey blith?

      Beautiful pictures of Ft Denison showing no SLR in both data and appearance yet he reckons we are the deniers.

      While all the time he denies absolute reality.

  • Stu says:

    Come on guys. I will give you a pass on data but photos like you present, absent of time of day and date, prove nothing. Even with that information added it is still dodgy without atmospheric and other data. Just like in recent weeks the highs in Sydney have been around 10cm higher than the published predictions. Mean Sea Level is a tricky concept. You should know that.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      “Mean Sea Level is a tricky concept. You should know that.”

      So should alarmists, who should be cautious before making “predictions” stretching out up to 2000 years into the future, based on shonky computer models.

    • spangled drongo says:

      “Mean Sea Level is a tricky concept. You should know that.”

      Stueyluv, MSL just happens to be the datum point that all coastal and adjoining infrastructure is based on.

      Virtually everything that is built is based on MSL.

      But because the earth is a pear-shaped geoid, satellite measurement via orbit will mostly be wrong and requiring constant adjustment, making local MSL measurements by far the most reliable.

      • Boambee John says:

        SD

        Also described as an oblate spheroid. Mathematically interesting, but the people who identify targets for ICBMs probably have a good grasp of the difficulties.

        • spangled drongo says:

          Yes BJ, those ICBMs can miss the target by 5mm and no one will know the difference but when the “experts” are out by only half that much every year with their SLs, after a while any observing person can see it a mile away.

          Except the easily conned true-believers, that is.

      • Stu says:

        “ MSL just happens to be the datum point that all coastal and adjoining infrastructure is based on.” Really! Where I live the chief concern is high water and it’s trend of rising. Planners require higher structures to compensate. Once again governments, local, state and federal plus insurers seem to have run away from your no change idea. And then you have trouble with similar concepts like “global temperature”. Inconsistent!

        And also by lack of comment I conclude that you agree that those photos of FD are meaningless, good.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          I hate to disillusion you, but insurers love everything about climate change. Not because they believe it all, but because they can increase their charges with the open approval of “progressives” who would otherwise abuse them as money-hungry exploitative capitalists.

          That this possibility seems never to have ocurred to you says much about the narrowness of your thinking.

          Local government planners also just love the additional power they gain, to lord it over the proles.

          And global average temperature remains a nonsense concept.

        • spangled drongo says:

          You obviously have not sought approval to build any sea front infrastructure. Even floor levels of all habitable rooms are subject to MSL.

          High water varies with all sorts of situations but when tide range is fully known in all weather conditions, MSL is the much more applicable factor.

          “And also by lack of comment I conclude that you agree that those photos of FD are meaningless”

          Not only can you not comprehend, stueyluv, you can’t even read.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Stu will love this “scientific breakthrough” from the Niels Bohr Institute, U of Copenhagen.

    The trouble is, is that it happened from natural climate variability and not from humans.

    Something I have been trying to point out to him for a long time:

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/06/claim-the-climate-changed-rapidly-alongside-sea-ice-decline-in-the-north/

    • Stu says:

      Cherry picking again spangled drano. The paper is based on the “Nordic” seas ie those north of Norway and east of Greenland and south of Svalbard (which comprise 0.75% of the world oceans and a small fraction of the whole Arctic oceans). Note that these areas are ice free in summer and form ice in winter in western and northern parts. It refers to the climate of the region. What caused the melting was intrusion of warmer waters (as a result of global warming). The article says “This is knowledge we can apply in our improved understanding of how the sea ice decline we observe today may impact the climate in the Arctic”, says Helle Astrid Kjær”. So he is talking about the ARCTIC. They do not assert that a change in sea ice in the region changed the climate of the world way back. It is much more complex than that.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        “It refers to the climate of the region.”

        Regional climate? Are you slowly coming to the realisation that the “global climate” is really just a collection of quite different regional climates, each of which varies for local, not global, reasons?

        • stu says:

          FFS, are you real, what do you think “climate” means. Of course the climate is different from place to place and they can ALL be changing at the same time. Talking of “climate change” does not infer same thing everywhere. Why do you waste time, effort and electrons to post such a simplistic statement of the bloody obvious?

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Because fools like you rabbit on about climate change, but seek to use action in Australia (Paris! CO2 emissions!) to solve issues in distant regions.

            Still, good to see that you accept that regional problems need specific regional solutions, but cannot solve issues far away.

            That is (among other reasons) people like Neville focus on emissions in places like China having to be controlled to solve their regional issues. Nothing done here can resolve issues in, eg, China, but stu-pid actions here can damage us without helping elsewhere.

      • spangled drongo says:

        How is quoting claims from a sci paper “cherry picking”?

        And stick to the facts.

        When the Arctic warmed significantly during these more ice-free periods even during glacials, simply due to nat var, it should be obvious to even the dumbest true believer that it would happen much more easily during an interglacial.

  • Neville says:

    Let’s face it our donkeys are totally clueless and will never, ever wake up.
    We’re told that we could see SLR of 200 ft and yet we have clear photos that show no discernible SLR for 150 years at Fort Denison.
    So are we living in a time of climate crisis or not? Well clearly we’re not if proper data/ evidence counts. I’ll leave our ignorant fools to the comfort of their fantasy world and Hansen’s fairy tales.
    BTW back to the incredible increase in Africa’s pop since 1970 that proves beyond any doubt that the world is definitely not suffering through a climate crisis or anything like it. In fact the reverse is true.
    In 1970 the pop of Australia was 12.5 mil and today is about 25.5 mil. AGAIN the pop of Africa was 363 mil in 1970 and today about 1340 mil and of course the people are much better off, live about 17 more years, increased calories, better education, more urbanised, etc, etc.
    But here’s the real kicker, the average increase in pop since 1970 (per year) is 19.5 mil and Australia about 260,000 or 0.26 mil increase per year.
    That’s my proof that there’s no climate crisis at all and in fact the reverse is true.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s more proof that there is no climate crisis. In 1970 the world pop was 3.68 bn and today about 7.8 bn and the average life exp in 1970 was 56.4yrs and today is about 73 years.
    Of course much higher in OECD countries and lower in non OECD or developing countries. But even our poorest continent is catching up as shown above.
    Yet the world pop has increased by 4.1 bn in just 50 years and everyone is much better off. And the NASA SAT data shows that the planet has been greening over that period of time as well.

    • Stu says:

      Hmmm, “ Here’s more proof that there is no climate crisis. In 1970 the world pop was 3.68 bn and today about 7.8 bn and the average life exp in 1970 was 56.4yrs and today is about 73 years.”
      Can you please expand on that claim. How exactly does an increase in population and life expectancy prove there is no climate crisis? Correlation yes, causation no.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        “Correlation yes, causation no.”

        So, pretty much like everything alarmists say?

      • spangled drongo says:

        That’s riiiiight, stueyluv.

        If the population halved instead of doubled, due to the climate, we would have much more reason to be happy with it, hey?

        • Boambee John says:

          SD

          A significant proportion, possibly a majority, of alarmists would regard halving of the world population as a gain, not a loss.

          Of course, they assume that people as valuable as they consider themselves to be would necessarily be prominent among the survivors, and rule over them as “benevolent” dictators.

        • Stu says:

          Once again try and grow up. If the population had halved it may well have been from some plague like now being experienced and unrelated to climate. Once again correlation not causation. Of course such a plague could be caused by land use (over use) changes implicating humans in the outcome, but that is another story you would not countenance eh.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Way to muss the point. Check out some comments by alarmists. They don’t mention diseases, just the desirability of reducing population numbers. Do you reject such suggestions?

          • spangled drongo says:

            Why don’t you just post us a link to your mate Paul Ehrlich, stueyluv, and maintain the doom:

            “The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s and 1980s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death”

            You have shown so often how you have such a good grip on reality.

  • Neville says:

    Here’s a good answer to the con merchants and fraudsters because they are always wrong. This question is from Ronald Bailey ( see last paragraph) who said this in 2000. And here are the forecasts of the first earth day in 1970. Could these LW loonies have been more wrong about the next 50 years?

    https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/18-spectacularly-wrong-predictions-made-around-the-time-of-first-earth-day-in-1970-expect-more-this-year-3/

    But first here’s the AOC donkey who had this to say….

    “Climate preacher/scientist Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez predicted recently that “We’re like… the world is gonna end in 12 years if we don’t address climate change.” You can add that to the spectacularly wrong predictions made this year around the time of Earth Day 2019.

    “Finally, think about this question, posed by Ronald Bailey in 2000: What will Earth look like when Earth Day 60 rolls around in 2030? Bailey predicts a much cleaner, and much richer future world, with less hunger and malnutrition, less poverty, and longer life expectancy, and with lower mineral and metal prices. But he makes one final prediction about Earth Day 2030: “There will be a disproportionately influential group of doomsters predicting that the future–and the present–never looked so bleak.” In other words, the hype, hysteria and spectacularly wrong apocalyptic predictions will continue, promoted by the virtue signalling “environmental grievance hustlers” like AOC”. Fair dinkum will these lemmings ever wake up to these religious fanatics?

  • Neville says:

    So the world is greening, the human population of the world has increased by 4.1 bn people in just 50 yrs, yet the life exp has increased from about 56.4 to 73 over that very short time span and yet we’re supposed to have a climate crisis?
    And the first billion (then living) humans didn’t exist until 1800 and their life exp was under 40 and nearly everyone was poor and sick.
    As Dr Rosling says at the start of his graphical display ” the industrial rev was the start” of our present prosperity and it continues because of the use of fossil fuels.
    At least 80%+ of our TOTAL energy ( not just electricity) still comes from coal, oil or gas and the Biden donkey etc will find it very difficult to lower that % without an ongoing environmental disaster from dirty, unreliable S&W etc.
    At least the LW Shellenberger has the decency to apologise for the dirty, unreliable S&W disaster and now works to try and wake up the world if we continue down that path.

    • spangled drongo says:

      Yes Neville. Also, when coal, gas, nuclear etc capacity factors and installed capacity factors are one and the same but wind and solar have a capacity factor of around 5% of installed capacity factor, we need 20 times the number of “renewable” generators.

      And then we still need back-up.

      And they think that will also power our transport without doing irreparable ecological damage.

      And they are completely convinced that “renewables” are the cheapest power source.

      And this is the path we are on, today.

      G’d’elpus!

  • Stu says:

    Bj, Sd you said the increase in population proved there is no climate problem. I asked you to provide some justification for that claim, you have not provided it. You are both great exemplars of the Gish Gallop, stop wasting our time, stop making unsupportable claims.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      Confused as ever. I think that was Neville, not me.

      Please try to read more carefully. Stop wasting our time having to work out what you are babbling about.

      • Stu says:

        You were supporting his assertion, and both appear indistinguishable in your arguments, therefore same thing.

        And BTW, for both of you politically aligned twins, how is your argument for fraud in the US election going? Last I looked it is 50 cases thrown out including the latest being the US Supreme court. The fraud argument seems to have been lost down the mine shaft old mateys.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          “You were supporting his assertion, and both appear indistinguishable in your arguments, therefore same thing.”

          Once again squirming to hide your habit of rushing to post abuse without knowing whom you are responding to.

          “twins”? What are you on about? You have previously implied that we co-ordinate our responses, with absolutely no evidence. Grow up.

          I will leave prognosticating about the US election to you. Reading political tea leaves is about the limit of your capability.

          It will be what it will be, but wiser minds wait for the dust to settle, in what is at the moment a very dusty arena.

          But, might I take it that you now deny absolutely that there was any fraud at all? Gutsy call, for a self-proclaimed “expert”!

          • Stu says:

            I see the Arizona Supreme Court issued a decision, the score is now 1/51. Do you still stick with the “I was robbed” meme? I assume the answer is yes, you poor deluded soul.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            You still haven’t denied that there was any fraud at all. Why not? Worried that truth will out, and you will be shown (again) to be a fool?

            PS, I wasn’t running, so I can’t have been robbed. Silly Stu, you take politics far too seriously.

          • Stu says:

            BJ, I live in Australia and like most folk even in USA, have no idea whether or not there was any fraud in the voting system. But so far, in spite of wild claims of such fraud none have been found to have any substance (cases now 1/ 51). The sacked head of election security is on record upholding the honesty and security of the election as the best ever (that is why Trump sacked him). He is backed by Republican operatives in multiple sates.

            The only clear cut case of fraud so far revealed is the fund raising scam Trump is using to raise funds for fighting the election “fraud”. That fund in fact diverts most of the funds to a side fund, with no oversight, for his own personal use. That you continue to be taken in by the pitiful scam he is extending is laughable. Can you imagine for a minute the fuss if Hillary Clinton had pulled this stunt? No, I guess not, your imagination appears to be one dimensional.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            So your summary position is that there might have been fraud, but not much. Sort of the “I’ll only put it in a kittle way” defence? Seems any fraudsters were too incompetent to understand that the only point of electoral fraud is to do enough to influence the result.

            As for the various court cases, you appear to know even less about the law than you do about science. This is a magnificent achievement!

            Fraud cases are always complex, and take some time to prosecute successfully. What is (politically) important now is to get the message out that there are justified suspicions. Every time the Demonrats’ allies in Big Tech label something as “disputed”, they add to the publicity. Way to go Zuck!

            We shall see what happens in the longer term, but one thing is certain. A Biden presidency will be under a cloud from its very beginning.

          • Boambee John says:

            Little way, not kittle way!

  • spangled drongo says:

    When stueydoom gets desperate enough he simply denies history. When global population more than doubles during the very period that doomsters are predicting pop-wipeout, he refuses to understand there is not much room for CAGW to be having any effect, except a beneficial one.

    But what he mainly doesn’t EVER get is that when doomsters are making the predictions that continually fail to come true, it is not up to sceptics to supply the reasons or evidence as to why their B/S didn’t eventuate.

    They are too busy laughing.

    You are supposed to come up with your own excuses.

    • Stu says:

      You really are a slow learner with poor comprehension. Funny, I notice you never try to contradict that statement. The issues of climate change are about the changes we are locking in by our current indifference to the health of the atmosphere. You say “… doomsters are making the predictions that continually fail to come true”. Really? We are not there yet so how can you say that. The issue is that the continuation of the change we have started will become catastrophic if we continue on that path. But you cannot grasp such concepts. It is the same as the way you think that good old Oz is completely independent of the rest of the world so we can just do our own thing. Mate, the world climate is an interlinked system. But you stick with your SH carbon sink false premise, it suits you. Peaceful dreams old pussy.

      • spangled drongo says:

        And what is even more amazing, as stu just confirms, is the doomsters belief in “the changes we are locking in by our current indifference to the health of the atmosphere” and his denial of the vast improvements that have occurred and are still occurring world wide.

        But that’s standard doomster philosophy, hey stu.

        And when you can’t grasp that if by reducing our 1.3% we can make the slightest bit of difference to that wonderful aerial fertiliser you hate with such a passion, against the major emitters, it is YOU, stu, that seems to think “that good old Oz is completely independent of the rest of the world so we can just do our own thing”.

        At least ADMIT that you are the one who is so stu-pidly confused and obtuse.

        Because you are displaying it for all to see with every word you write.

        • Boambee John says:

          SD

          Yet, inly a day or so, Stu was agreeing furiously that the world climate is an aggregation of local climates. Now they are all interlinked.

          He’s a “two bob each way” person, depending on the point he wishes to make.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        “You say “… doomsters are making the predictions that continually fail to come true”. Really? We are not there yet so how can you say that”

        You might have been asleep all of the times that previous predicted “doom dates” have come and gone. SD mentioned Ehrlich, and the list of already failed predictions was linked earlier.

        These failures cannot be dismissed with hand waving and claims that the next predictions are the real ones. A record if consistent failure does not engender confidence.

  • Neville says:

    The farming workforce has changed quickly over a very short period of time and just at the time we should be seeing the impacts of their climate crisis or 1991 to 2018. Here’s a quote using World bank data.

    “Food is essential to our livelihoods, but the proportion of people working in food production has declined over time. As countries develop, technology improvements and increasing yields typically lead to fewer people working in agriculture”. My comment….IOW a drop of 16% from 1991 to 2018 and this is the world for both wealthy and poor countries combined.

    The chart below shows data from the World Bank on employment in agriculture over time. Globally, about 1 billion people* work in the agricultural sector, about 28% of the population employed in 2018. This is down from 44% in 1991″.

    Then we have this quote USA just 1% today but a poor country DEM REP Congo 69% still employed in agriculture See below for link……

    “But there are stark differences in employment in agriculture between rich and poor countries: In the Democratic Republic of the Congo, 69% of employed people work in agriculture; in the United States, only 1% work in the sector.

    Data from the World Bank on the proportion of people working in agriculture, as a fraction of people employed, is shown below”.

    https://blog.resourcewatch.org/2019/05/30/map-of-the-month-how-many-people-work-in-agriculture/

  • Neville says:

    Here’s a few quotes from Lomborg about the world in 2070. Using UN data he shows how much richer everyone will be and zero evidence of a crisis or apocalypse. And former alarmist/ extremist and Obama supporter Shellenberger now agrees with Lomborg , using the same data.

    https://news.sky.com/story/bjorn-lomborg-climate-alarm-is-a-bigger-threat-than-climate-change-it-leads-to-anxious-lives-and-bad-policies-12067383

    “Climate alarmism is becoming ever more strident.”

    “In my home country, Denmark, the front page of the most read magazine proclaims that “climate anxiety is good for the climate”.

    This is a remarkably honest message, signalling that it has become acceptable to frighten people senselessly to support climate policies.
    Advertisement

    A YouGov poll in 2019 found that almost half of the world’s population believes climate change will likely end the human race.

    It makes school children ask why they should educate themselves, when they don’t have a future anyway.

    If climate change really could end the world, then perhaps this alarmism might be warranted, but that is simply not the case.

    The UN’s climate panel has estimated that the negative impact of climate change equates to incomes reducing by 0.2% to 2% by the 2070s.

    By then, each person worldwide will be 363% richer; however, climate change will mean people will only be 356% richer than today. That’s a problem – but it isn’t the end of the world.

    Climate alarm has real consequences. When we panic, we make bad decisions.

    Over the decades, we have consistently chosen expensive and inefficient climate solutions, costing trillions of dollars, that have had almost no effect.

    The UN’s Environment Programme found that the impact climate policies have had in the last 10 years equates to living in a world where no new policies were made after 2005.

    Despite the poor track record of previous policies, many rich countries are now competing to go even further and become carbon neutral.

    Only one, New Zealand, has dared to ask for an independent estimate of the cost of going carbon neutral by 2050 – at least a staggering 16% of GDP, every year.
    Donald Trump has declared a major disaster in California as wildfires have destroyed almost a million acres of land in the past week.
    Image:Climate policies over the last decade have had little effect

    Even this enormous sacrifice will only slow global warming by just 0.002°C by the end of the century.

    Due to three quarters of this century’s emissions coming from poorer countries, the actions of rich countries have little matter.

    Even if all rich nations stopped all their CO2 emissions tomorrow, and for the rest of the century, temperature rise would only reduce from 4.1C to 3.7C by 2100.

    To get the rest of the world onboard, we need smarter solutions. We must invest far more into research and development of green technology.

    If we can innovate and make the price of green energy less than fossil fuels, everyone will switch – not just rich countries but also places such as China, India and Africa.

    Climate alarm leads to anxious lives and bad policies. It also takes our attention off the world’s many other problems, like preparing for global pandemics. We can do so much better”.

    Bjorn Lomborg is president of the Copenhagen Consensus, Visiting Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and Visiting Professor at Copenhagen Business School.

    His new book is False Alarm – How Climate Change Panic Costs Us Trillions, Hurts the Poor, and Fails to Fix the Planet.

  • Neville says:

    A new top study of temps from Dr Lindzen and Dr Christy. So why are we worried by the so called dangerous recent temp increase?
    And we’re supposed to sit back and say nothing while these donkeys continue to waste trillions $ on this non problem? And the temp difference by 2100 will be ZIP.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/08/co2-coalition-the-global-mean-temperature-anomaly-record-how-it-works-and-why-it-is-misleading/

  • Stu says:

    BJ, here is a thorough account of the election “fraud” claims. Check it out, and stop listening to the purveyors of political misinformation.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/interactive/2020/election-integrity/

    The only fraud is Trump himself, but no matter he will cease to be President on January 21. Do you want to bet some money on it?

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      I’m sure that you will agree that the WaPo, as a long term strong supporter of Trump, would present a completely unbiased summary. //sarc//

      As for who will be the next president, as I wrote above, it will be what it will be, but Biden will have little chance of being accepted as a legitimate president.

      Do you personally deny absolutely that there was any electoral fraud? Just for the record.

  • Stu says:

    And BTW, there is a new discussion theme emerging in USA regarding fraud in the election. It stems from the claims of statistical improbability and swings on the unexpected easy wins by senators Collins, McConnell and Graham against the odds. The theme seems to be that the Republicans had organised high order vote fraud, which worked for them, but was outshone by the strong turnout and support for Biden in other states, which upset their expected result. The story may have legs for a longer run.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      Corrected for you!

      “but was outshone by the strong level of fraud in favour of Biden in swing states, which upset their expected result. The story may have legs for a longer run.”

  • spangled drongo says:

    Poor, silly, denier stu.

    If this isn’t a Constitutional Crisis, what is?

    18 US States file against 4 corrupt States that failed to hold fair elections:

    https://www.rt.com/usa/509182-texas-lawsuit-scotus-17-states/

  • spangled drongo says:

    As Jo says; Free and fair elections are there to prevent a situation where more than half the country feels it is being abused, used and has no possible remedy to improve the injustice. It’s not about Trump or Biden. In every other election for the last 200+ years the losers knew they could toss out the corrupt in four years time. But not any more. If the cheaters win this time, there is no next time. If they are rewarded why wouldn’t cheaters cheat again?

  • spangled drongo says:

    Meanwhile; “China, the world’s biggest carbon emitter, is expected to be given priority over Australia, New Zealand and Canada to speak at Boris Johnson’s climate action summit, as Scott Morrison declared emissions policies would be set in the national interest rather than to get a speaking slot at an international summit.

    The Prime Minister, who wants to address the UN event after the government updated its long-term emissions projections showing Australia was on track to hit its 2030 Paris target, has not been granted a speaking slot, with priority handed to countries deemed to have adopted more ambitious climate strategies.”

    • Neville says:

      SD and then we have this delusional nonsense from the so called Pacific Islands leaders and our clueless Labor party. And yet people vote for these morons + Greens and are even stu-pid enough to BELIEVE they can change the climate. Of course recent PR studies prove most islands are stable or growing in size over the last 30 and 70 years.

      See Kench or Duvat etc that I’ve linked to many times. Why should we waste billions $ on this pig ignorant nonsense for ZERO change and completely stuff up our electricity grid into the bargain? And have an environmental disaster and clean-up every 20 years of the dirty, toxic S&W disaster? OH and horrendous electricity bills for a guaranteed zero change?

      https://www.patconroy.com.au/media/media-releases/morrison-must-heed-pacific-leaders-climate-call/

      MORRISON MUST HEED PACIFIC LEADERS’ CLIMATE CALL
      December 01, 2020

      “Scott Morrison must clearly and unambiguously commit Australia to real action to tackle climate change at this month’s Pacific Islands Forum Leaders meeting.

      Mr Morrison should heed this morning’s call by Pacific political and religious leaders to address the potentially devastating impact of climate change on the region.

      In an open letter to the Prime Minister, former prime ministers and presidents, along with parliamentarians, archbishops, bishops and senior religious figures from across the Pacific have warned that climate change is the region’s greatest security threat.

      Mr Morrison’s equivocation and back-sliding on climate at last year’s Pacific Islands Forum Leaders meeting inflicted significant harm to Australia’s standing in the region.

      The Prime Minister needs to undo this damage by using the next Leaders meeting, scheduled for 16-18 December, to commit Australia to net zero carbon emissions by 2050.

      A ‘Pacific Step Up’ without a commitment to net zero carbon by 2050 has very little credibility in the region.

      He should also give an undertaking to his Pacific counterparts that the Australian Government will not use dodgy and illegal Kyoto “carryover” credits to meet Australia’s 2030 emissions reduction target.

      This month’s Pacific Islands Forum Leaders meeting is Mr Morrison’s chance to demonstrate that his latest rhetoric on climate change is not just another Morrison marketing slogan but will be backed by real action”

      • spangled drongo says:

        Yes Neville, delusional nonsense in a delusional world.

        As I posted upthread from the late Clive James’ wisdom: “The Prime Minister of Tuvalu, who has probably guessed by now that the sea isn’t going to rise by so much as an inch; but he still wants, for his supposedly threatened atoll, a share of the free cash, and especially because the question has changed. It used to be: how will we cope when the disaster comes? The question now is: how will we cope if it does not?”

  • Neville says:

    Dr Peter Ridd is very optimistic about our GBR and says the reef is improving. He also considers “it is the SCIENCE that is ROTTEN, not the reef”.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/12/09/peter-ridd-its-the-science-thats-rotten-not-the-great-barrier-reef/

    • spangled drongo says:

      Yes Neville, when warmer water is what coral thrives on the GBR is naturally not in any danger.

      And following on from;

      “The question now is: how will we cope if it does not?”

      This is the new non-problem problem.

      How to construct a catastrophe when nothing is happening.

      And Cli-Sci are right into it along with most of the MSM.

      Who are making a fortune….

      Supplied by most of the western govts led by crazy BoJo.

      And the big do-nothing-about-the-non-problem-country is sitting back rubbing its hands in anticipation.

  • Neville says:

    We know how stu-pid our blog donkeys are , so lets make sure they really understand this part of Lomborg’s message I linked to above.
    This is from the IPCC and Lomborg has assembled his team of about 24 experts that includes 3 Nobel prize winners. Here’s the highlight from his link.

    “A YouGov poll in 2019 found that almost half of the world’s population believes climate change will likely end the human race.

    It makes school children ask why they should educate themselves, when they don’t have a future anyway.

    If climate change really could end the world, then perhaps this alarmism might be warranted, but that is simply not the case.

    The UN’s climate panel has estimated that the negative impact of climate change equates to incomes reducing by 0.2% to 2% by the 2070s.

    By then, each person worldwide will be 363% richer; however, climate change will mean people will only be 356% richer than today. That’s a problem – but it isn’t the end of the world”. End of Lomborg’s quote.

    So each person worldwide will be 3.56 times richer in 50 years and would have been 3.63 times richer but for climate change?
    GEEEEZZZZ what a terrible penalty facing today’s kiddies in 2070 when they’re old and grey? SARC.
    And for this we’re supposed to waste 100s of trillions $ NOW to try and ward off that terrible loss of 0.2% to 2% in incomes for our future kiddies and adults. SARC
    As I’ve said many times, this has to be the greatest con trick and fraud in history.
    And the previous alarmist and LW extremist Shellenberger used to BELIEVE this idiocy, but now agrees with Lomborg and his expert team.

  • Stu says:

    SD quoting RT news. Try and be a bit selective. This is RT “ Founded in 2005, RT, originally Russia Today, is a television network funded by the Russian government. It operates cable and satellite television channels directed to audiences outside of Russia as well as providing Internet content in various languages, including Russian.”

    The only fraud in this election is the one being perpetrated by the President and his sycophantic followers, including the Paxton who filed the claim. Apparently he is keen on doing Trumps bidding in the hope of a pardon to protect him from the cases he faces for a variety of claims. But it will not succeed. There is no legal basis for it. Read the response from the Pa Attorney General.”

    Here it is for you.

    “ Since Election Day, State and Federal courts throughout the country have been flooded with frivo- lous lawsuits aimed at disenfranchising large swaths of voters and undermining the legitimacy of the elecion. The State of Texas has now added its voice to the cacophony of bogus claims. Texas seeks to invalidate elections in four states for yielding results with which it disagrees. Its request for this Court to exercise its original jurisdiction and then anoint Texas’s preferred candidate for President is legally indefensible and is an afront to principles of constitutional democracy.
    What Texas is doing in this proceeding is to ask this Court to reconsider a mass of baseless claims about problems with the election that have already been considered, and rejected, by this Court and other courts. It attempts to exploit this Court’s sparingly used original jurisdiction to relitigate those matters. But Texas obviously lacks standing to bring such claims, which, in any event, are barred by laches, and are moot, meritless, and dangerous. Texas has not suffered harm simply because it dislikes the result of the election, and nothing in the text, history, or structure of the Constitution supports Texas’s view that it can dictate the manner in which four other states run their elections. Nor is that view grounded in any precedent from this Court. Texas does not seek to have the Court interpret the Constitution, so much as disregard it.
    The cascading series of compounding defects in Texas’s filings is only underscored by the surreal alter- nate reality that those filings attempt to construct. That alternate reality includes an absurd statistical analysis positing that the probability of President- Elect Biden winning the election was “one in a quadrillion.” Bill of Complaint at 6. Texas’s effort to get this Court to pick the next President has no basis in law or fact. The Court should not abide this seditious abuse of the judicial process, and should send a clear and unmistakable signal that such abuse must never be replicated.”

    That is just the introduction. I like the reference to “seditious abuse of judicial process” part. Very juicy.

    How is the overall case count going? LOL.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      Interesting segue from Neville’s comment on climate change to a diatribe on the US election.

      You are becoming obsessed. Sit back and smell the roses, there is nothing you can do about the US election. Worry about a mm of sea level rise pa instead.

      • Boambee John says:

        PS, good to see you continue with your usual custom of attacking the messenger, rather than debating the message.

        Any thoughts on the Swalwell/Chinese Mata Hari story? Has there been Chinese interference in the election?

    • spangled drongo says:

      So stu shoots the messenger again. Pathetic!

      And then goes on about Texas and ignores the other 17.

      But I’m sure you’ve already found 10 other media articles covering it.

      It’s just that, like all Biden supporters, ignoring reality is standard procedure.

      Where’s that fat lady gone?

  • Stu says:

    BJ forget your segue rubbish, I was responding to the earlier post by SD.

    And SD, regarding your position, the Supreme court just rejected the case . “ The court, in a brief unsigned order, said Texas lacked standing to pursue the case, saying it “has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its elections.””

    What do you say now?

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      But were unable to place your comment next to the original? Sloppy!

      • Stu says:

        Oh so sorry Mr Pedant in chief. Actually I was making sure SD saw it but I should have realised you guys trawl every post so would have seen it anyway. But, does it really matter?

        And SD, that Arizona piece is a total crock. It is much too simplistic and lacking in detail. It takes no account of voter registration practices and voter turnout. As with the election as a whole Trump was a polarising factor. Many more made the effort to register, and to vote because of him, on both sides. But overall across the 50 states the man was sufficiently toxic that 7 million more voted to remove him than keep him. That is why down ballot republicans generally did quite well, increasing seats won, but Trump was rejected.

        Regarding your posts on the subject can you tell us the sources you use? Curious.

        Has the fat lady left town or just lost her voice?

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          “But overall across the 50 states the man was sufficiently toxic that 7 million more voted to remove him than keep him”

          Good to see you loyally promulgating the same (almost word for word) DNC talking points I have seen elsewhere.

          So, what do you make of the post-election poll (Rasmussen, iirc) which showed (unsurprisingly) that 80% of Republicans believe that the Demonrats stole the election, and also (surprisingly) that 30% of Democrats also believed that their side stole the election?

          That’s a lot of people who don’t accept your talking points.

          • Stu says:

            “ So, what do you make of the post-election poll (Rasmussen, iirc) which showed (unsurprisingly) that 80% of Republicans believe that the Demonrats stole the election,”

            Nothing much really. When you have a ranting nutter in a position of power his words can influence “followers”. This has become a cult following and is reaching danger level. It is fairly easy to convince people of false notions on flimsy evidence. You are a classic example. I am not sure where you draw your information from but clearly you have swallowed the whole “fraud’ story hook, line and sinker. If the 80 or so judges who have ruled in these cases, mostly Trump or at least Republican appointed have rejected the cases, and see no merit, what does it matter if 80% of Republicans believe it was stolen.

            Once again I point out that on 58 occasions so far Trump or his supporters have filed claims in court and been tossed out. The Washington Post has found “ …….that 38 judges appointed by Republicans dealt blows to such suits, with some writing searing opinions.
            The latest example came Saturday, when federal District Judge Brett H. Ludwig, a Trump nominee who took the bench in September, dismissed a lawsuit filed by the president that sought to throw out the election results in Wisconsin, calling the request “extraordinary.”
            “A sitting president who did not prevail in his bid for reelection has asked for federal court help in setting aside the popular vote based on disputed issues of election administration, issues he plainly could have raised before the vote occurred,” he wrote. “This Court has allowed plaintiff the chance to make his case and he has lost on the merits.”
            Trump asked for the rule of law to be followed, Ludwig noted, adding: “It has been.”

            The latest case in Wisconsin was thrown out “with prejudice” which means don’t even think about trying again. It is over.

            Here is part of the latest ruling “ Having reviewed the caselaw and plaintiff’s allegations, the Court concludes it has jurisdiction to resolve plaintiff’s claims, at least to the extent they rest on federal law, specifically the Electors Clause. And, on the merits of plaintiff’s claims, the Court now further concludes that plaintiff has not proved that defendants violated his rights under the Electors Clause. To the contrary, the record shows Wisconsin’s Presidential Electors are being determined in the very manner directed by the Legislature, as required by Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution. Plaintiff’s complaint is therefore dismissed with prejudice.”

            On what grounds do you remain an apologist for Trump and his delusions regarding the election? It would appear that belief in the “fraud” is now on par with the belief that you are winning in the climate war.

            I nearly forgot, the campaign won a single case. They were able to reduce the time to fix ballot envelopes with minor errors from 9 days to 6. I think it was in Wisconsin again, but cannot be bothered checking, it is too trivial.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            ROFLMAO. You took that bait, hook, line and sinker!

            Life is too short to respond to your diatribe line by line, so I will just make a few points.

            “now on par with the belief that you are winning in the climate war.”

            Perhaps you could show me where I made this claim? I have commented critically on your fondness for “science by consensus”, but I have not claimed victory (though you have on many occasions).

            “When you have a ranting nutter in a position of power his words can influence “followers”.”

            I am surprised that you place 30% of Democrats in the category of “ranting nutters”, but, whatever.

            What you missed in that survey, probably because basic arithmetic is beyond your intellectual capacity, is the nembers involved. Trump got around 75 million votes. 80% of that is some 60 million. I’m not sure of the final Biden numbers, but let’s say 82 million, 10% more than Trump. 30% is over 24 million.

            So, some 84 million, more that the total votes Biden received, believe there was fraud. Biden will enter his presidency with a majority of voters doubting his legitimacy.

            As for the multitude of court cases, it seems that you have forgotten (if you ever read) my comment of 10 December.

            “Fraud cases are always complex, and take some time to prosecute successfully. What is (politically) important now is to get the message out that there are justified suspicions. Every time the Demonrats’ allies in Big Tech label something as “disputed”, they add to the publicity. Way to go Zuck!”

            Each of those court cases adds to the publicity, as do your comments. Keep up the good work!

          • Stu says:

            Oh come now BJ, comprehension! “ I am surprised that you place 30% of Democrats in the category of “ranting nutters”, “. Very clearly I said there was one nutter. But that is ok, you are excused.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Fell in again. You are quite correct. You described 30% of Democrat voters as part of “This has become a cult following and is reaching danger level.”

          • Stu says:

            Mate, you forget, they are all Americans!

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Stil with the stereotyping, ethnic stereotyping this time.

            If the SJW Thought Police see this, you will be cancelled.

          • Stu says:

            You use a very broad definition of ethnic. Clearly I meant that as a whole they are not like us, and we are a weird mob.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Really? Sounds like post facto justification of a derogatory comment.

    • Stu says:

      I say that is ridiculous misquotation. You have to be joking, right? No, actually we all know you like to misrepresent things.

      • spangled drongo says:

        What did I misrepresent?

        • Stu says:

          You did not, the extremely cut video (which you promoted) did. Clearly Biden was talking about unmasking the fraud they expected from the Trump camp. They did not expect the fraud to be the blatant misrepresentation after the election perpetrated by Trump and followers. It is worrying to watch as the USA teeters on the edge of mayhem. Putin must be chuckling every day. His efforts to thwart Clinton in 2016 have come home splendidly. Back to the questions, what hold does Putin have over Trump, what does Trump have over Senator Graham? It will be interesting if we ever get the transcript of the very unusual one on one meetings between Putin and Trump. Certainly Trump is fighting very hard to hang on and protect his personal interests. Another big question is whether he can self pardon against a charge of treason. That has never been tried before. Interesting times indeed.

          • Stu says:

            So in short you believe that Biden confessed up front to a TV audience that he and the party machine were going to commit fraud to “steal the vote”. That would match the simplistic and wrong thinking you have demonstrated on other issues.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Biden also boasted in an interview that he had threatened to with hold aid money from Ukraine if the Ukraine government did not sack a prosecutor investigating Burisma, for which his son worked.

            Then the Demonrats tried to impeach Trump for supposedly doing the same thing.

            Biden isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed, particularly over the last couple of years.

          • Stu says:

            The actual full story is a little different but shows how evil forces can misrepresent facts, but you know all about that.

            “ It’s true that Joe Biden leveraged $1 billion in aid to persuade Ukraine to oust its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, in March 2016. But it wasn’t because Shokin was investigating Burisma. It was because Shokin wasn’t pursuing corruption among the country’s politicians.

            As European and American diplomats pressed Ukraine to clean up its corruption, they focused on Shokin’s leadership of the Prosecutor General’s Office, which he took over in February 2015.”

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Sure, maaate. The “totally unbiassed” fact checkers hard at work.

            Can you state absolutely that his son’s personal benefit did not enter his mind, or are you a denier of paternal interest as an influence?

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu

    What do you make of the Chinese spy who worked for Feinstein for years, and the one why set a honey trap for Swalwell? Could there be any connection with Hunter Biden’s Chimlnese “business” links, and the “Big Guy”?

    Does the CCP now control the Democratic Party?

    • Stu says:

      At worst on par with the Russian control of Trump eh? At best probably inconsequential.

      • Boambee John says:

        Stu

        Dumb, even by your standards. The evidence of CCP “influence” on the Demonrats is far more substantial than anything Mueller uncovered in more than two years of digging.

        None so blind …

        • spangled drongo says:

          ….as those who deny reality. And not the least bit interested in finding out.

          • Boambee John says:

            SD

            Definitely true about not wanting to know.

            Much like his attitude to climate change, but without the excuse of scientific ignorance. Remember that Stu claims to have “studied US politics and their structure, as I have for over half a century,” but still knows little of detail about one side.

        • Stu says:

          “ The evidence of CCP “influence” on the Demonrats is far more substantial than anything Mueller uncovered in more than two years of digging.”

          One person in one office of a Committee chair versus significant evidence of Russian hold on the President. Go back and read the Muller report again, at least the bits we can read. On the latter point, more may soon become available.

          It has been noted that the Russians hacked the DNC mail server and released information to damage the campaign. They also hacked the emails of Senator Graham (also a Committee chair) who was very outspoken against Trump until that event and then suddenly he wasn’t. His emails were not released by, presumably the Russians again, but he had a complete change if heart after meeting with Trump. Interesting. More may come out on that also.

          Just admit foreign agents are at work wherever they can get a toe hold on both sides, just in case.

          Another mystery surrounds the one on one meetings of Trump and Putin with no US notetakers. Why no witness, why no explanation, what was discussed? Getting his orders probably.

          Have you looked at the MAGA people protesting and their dress code? Do you really want to be associated with such people?

          Another court case gone down against them today. Woops. Not looking good. Electoral college tomorrow!

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            “One person in one office of a Committee chair”

            Keep that head buried in the sand.

            Remember, See no evil, Hear no evil, and most important, Speak no evil. The Chinese might get upset.

            Caught up on the CCP list? Lots of CCP members scattered around, and that is only the ones from Shanghai.

          • Stu says:

            BJ, this story bears some resemblance to the election fraud stories. Lots of claims but no actual evidence. Where is the list of people implicated or compromised? The proof is less forthcoming than the actual situation of Trump overruling the security apparatus to grant people like Kushner security clearances. It is likely that had he not been president, Trump himself would not have passed clearance. His blatant disregard for security norms such as allowing the Russian ambassador and others including a Russian cameraman into the Oval Office speaks loudly on that score. It is fortunate that he is so switched off from doing the actual job and the Daily Brief being so down graded to his level that he does not have much to divulge to anyone so the future risk is low.

            As always it is such fun bantering with you, cheers.

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            Sure maaaate, whatever you say. Don’t let the sand get in your eyes while your head is buried in it.

          • Stu says:

            Well, where is the list? Just saying it exists does not mean it does. You would think by now there would details out there. So can only assume it is like Trump’s “evidence” which evaporates every time they get to court. Go and read some if the transcripts.

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu

    On the subject of Russian influence, I am reminded of the 2012 debate where Romney declared that Russia constituted a threat. In smarmy style, Obama commented that “The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back”.

    Now the Democrats have spent the last four years saying indirectly how brilliant Romney was (and how silly Obama was). And you are still pushing that line.

    Do you ever have trouble keeping up with the ever-changing “progressive” narrative? Or is your mind endlessly malleable?

  • Stu says:

    Guys, 306 to 302, can we move forward now and forget all the bullshit about stolen elections? It is over. Or are you going to die in the ditch with Jones and Dean?

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      So your position is that the election was comprehensively stolen, so now we should get back to your other personal obsession with climate change?

      Whatever!

      • Stu says:

        Can you actually lie straight in bed? You certainly seem to have trouble not twisting, even reversing, what other people stay, for some peculiar and perverse reason. But there you go eh.

        • Boambee John says:

          Stu

          Easily. I copied the technique from your erroneous claims that I believe that sceptics have won the Climate Change debate.

          Has your extensive research experience enabled you to track down anything about the CCP list yet? What do you think of the forensic report on the Dominion Vote Tabulation System, released by order of a Michigan judge?

          • Stu says:

            “ your erroneous claims that I believe that sceptics have won the Climate Change debate.” proof of my point above, you completely reverse what is said. Are you a troll or just fucking stupid?

          • Boambee John says:

            Stu

            On 13 December, at 0703, you said

            “would appear that belief in the “fraud” is now on par with the belief that you are winning in the climate war.”

            What part of “the belief that you are winning in the climate war” do you now disavow?

            Are you a troll or just fucking stupid?

  • Neville says:

    The EU have been forced to adopt more Nuclear, Gas and Hydrogen energy to quieten the increasing number of countries who fully understand the DIRTY, TOXIC, UNSUSTAINABLE S&W disaster.
    Scomo should now work at renewed pace to isolate the clueless Labor and Greens loonies and tell the public the true cost of their so called climate policies.
    Shorten failed dismally to explain the RUINABLES costing and EVs + charging times fiasco etc during the last FED election and the Coalition should go after them now and soften them up for 2022.
    Of course in the real world none of the above will make any difference to climate or temp for thousands of years according to Zickfeld, RS & NAS and even the Conversation that I’ve linked to many times.

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/eu-countries-agree-to-rapidly-upscale-hydrogen-market/?mc_cid=dd41c72a76&mc_eid=dcbe0ef09b

  • Stu says:

    BJ you wrote on December 7 “ I am not in a hole, those (including you) who choose to follow a wrong headed course of action are the ones in a hole. The sceptical position might not be in the ascendent right now, but reality has a way of prevailing, when all stu-pid courses of action have failed.” But if you are now saying you think the sceptics have lost the argument, that is great.

    • Boambee John says:

      Stu

      What part of “might not be in the ascendent right now,” do you find difficult to understand? The comment “reality has a way of prevailing, when all stu-pid courses of action have failed.” was a hope for the future.

      You really are stupid, no wonder you think the ekection of a geriatric who has difficulty stringing sentences together is a triumph.

  • Boambee John says:

    Stu

    Just for you, since you want to get back to climate change.

    “Fritz Vahrenholt was a pioneer of environmentalism in Germany since the wrote a book in 1976 denouncing the conditions in the chemical industry. As a social democrat and SPD politician he was Senator for Environment from 1991 to 1997, then he turned to business and built up the wind energy manufacturer Repower.

    Lately he has been a trenchant critic of German climate protection policy. He was fired from the Wildlife Foundation and his new book Unerwünschte Wahrheiten (Unwanted Truths) attacks the consequences of climate policy.

    Interview

    HA: In your new book “Unwanted Truths” you are taking on the entire climate science…

    FV: Do I? I am not denying the need for action or climate change itself – I am just coming to different conclusions about the scale or pace of it. I believe that it is not only humans who are responsible for climate change, but that natural factors are also at work. So we have more time than is often said.”

    Much more follows.

  • spangled drongo says:

    Stu, with all your waffle about evidence, when are you EVER going to produce the evidence to disprove current UN climate data showing no increases in rates of extreme weather, sea-level rise, or extinctions of species.

    Science shows that there is no climate crisis being driven by emissions of CO2, a mild warming gas and powerful plant food.

    But as you support the “science” that claims the complete opposite, for the one hundredth time please supply that evidence.

  • Neville says:

    BJ I wouldn’t bother arguing with our blog donkeys,because their stu-pidity knows no bounds.
    Just look at the Religion of Green to understand the difference between the SANE and INSANE way of understanding the so called climate debate and their so called mitigation BS and fra-d.
    Plenty of SANE and INSANE people to see here and their differences. Bill Nye their Science guy is probably one of the best examples of their considered response. SARC
    Oh and one of Biden’s loony new climate experts definitely thinks we only have 12 more years. Check out this AOC donkey at the link.
    Even LW Shellenberger now understands these con merchants and extremists and has had the decency to apologise for his previous stu-pid, delusional garbage.

    • Boambee John says:

      Neville

      It is always fun to watch Stu tie himself in illogical knots while trying to adhere to the precious “progressive” narrative.